Santa Klause was originally a black saint 'San Nicola Nero'

These concepts are socially constructed and have been given much weight. What are your thoughts?
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Santa Klause was originally a black saint 'San Nicola Nero'

Unread post by Tre » December 18th, 2006, 11:57 am

In the customs of the Netherlands jolly old St. Nicholas has a black helper, while in Italy-- where the remains of the real St. Nicholas lie-- old paintings and statues show even the patron saint of Christmas himself as a bushy-bearded black man

By Paco D. Taylor
Tuesday, December 5, 2006
http://www.nigrasum.com/

Oh, Santy Claus, we hardly knew ye. But for more than a century of American Christmas tradition, we certainly thought we had you all figured out: a chubby old elf of a man with a porcelain complexion, blue eyes, rose red cheeks and a snow-colored beard. That appearance was set in stone.

Or so we believed.

Sinter Klaas

Santa Claus owes much of his existence to customs brought to the New World by immigrants from Europe. Interwoven in the American tradition of Santa are the customs of England, Germany, Bavaria, Italy and -- above all -- the Netherlands, where the clearest connection to the Santa Claus tradition can be found.

Before becoming known in America as Santa Claus, this mythical gift bearer was known in the Netherlands as “Sint Claes” or “Sinter Klaas,” a Dutch distortion rooted in the name of Saint Nicholas, a bishop in the Eastern Orthodox Church during 4th century.

According to the Dutch, Sinter Klaas leaves his home in Spain around mid-November, traveling by steamboat to the Netherlands to deliver gifts on December 5th, the eve of St. Nicholas' Feast Day (Dec 6). Garbed in a red Episcopal robe with the pointed miter headdress of a bishop on his head, and carrying a gold shepherd’s staff, Sinter Klaas’ status as a high priest of the Church is on full display.

To date it is unclear why the Dutch consider Spain the homeland of Sinter Klaas -- not that the North Pole makes any better a locale for the toy making racket. The actual St. Nicholas lived in an ancient city called Myra, two miles from the Mediterranean Sea. But there are a few theories on the matter, the best of which has to do with the Moors, the Northwest African peoples who were the scourge of Europe for several hundred years.

Strange as Africa having any connection to Sinter Klaas may at first sound, it makes perfect sense when it is learned that in the centuries-old traditions of the Netherlands, Sinter Klaas isn’t assisted by elves, like in the stories told in America. In the legends of the Dutch the helpers of Sinter Klaas are dark-skinned blackamoors.

Zwarte Piet(s)

Making a list and checking it twice to keep accurate records of who has been naughty, and who has been nice throughout the year is a monumental task -- even for a magical old man like Sinter Klaas. So assisting him with his gift giving tasks is Zwarte Piet (Black Peter), a Moorish youth with large gold earrings in his ears.

According to tradition, Black Peter holds the book in which the names of all the children are kept, as well as the records of their behavior. He also carries Sinter Klaas’ bulging sack of toys.

Though the origin of Sinter Klaas is generally agreed upon, the origin of Black Peter -- while considerably more recent -- is a matter of debate. Moreover, as Europe’s relationship with black peoples has varied throughout the years so too has the origin of Black Peter, whose relationship to Sinter Klaas has ranged from devilish bogeyman (who tosses naughty children in his sack and carries them off to a hell somewhere in Spain), to noble companion, to civil servant, to clownish slave.

Whatever his exact origin, Black Peter has clearly come to represent an Islamic tide which once swept out of Africa and threatened to overtake medieval Europe. The fact that he is most often described as a Moor (making him a Muslim) fits Black Peter firmly into the historical time line when an army of Africans made a fearsome advance into southern Europe, securing a foothold that would allow the spread of the Islamic faith into previously Christian and/or pagan lands.

The Blackamoor

It was in 711 AD when the Moors crossed the Mediterranean into what is modern day Portugal and Spain. Within ten years they would control virtually the entire region. Eventually they would also cross the Pyrenees Mountains that separate France from Spain, taking several towns in the south of France (then known as Gaul). It would take more than thirty years for France to drive the Moors back through the Pyrenees Mountains. Their occupation of the neighboring Spain, however, would last more than seven-hundred years.

Around 827 AD the Moors also took the Mediterranean Islands of Corsica and Sicily -- both of which they occupied for more than two-hundred years. Several cities along the southern coast of Italy were also taken, including Taranto, Brindisi and Bari, the city where the bones of St. Nicholas lie enshrined. In a letter written in 871 AD to the king of the Eastern Roman Empire, King Ludwig II of Italy wrote that Naples, under Moorish occupation, had virtually become “a second Africa.”

It is this lesser known history of the Moors -- as well as Dutch involvement in the Transatlantic Slave Trade -- which contribute to the figure of Black Peter. Once, as one writer describes him, the “ultimate bogeyman of nightmares and parental threats,” this Moor now serves in a more neutered capacity as comic relief: A black fool set against a white, godly St. Nicholas with clownish pranks and mumbling mouthfuls of pseudo Afro-Dutch Creole.


Nicholas of Myra

“Saint Nicholas, on whom the character Santa Claus is based, was of Northern European descent,”

But, truth is, he wasn’t.

Like countless religious figures revered throughout Christian Europe, the birthplace of Saint Nicholas was in Asia. Asia Minor to be exact (part of the area questionably referred to now as the “Middle East”). Nicholas was born to wealthy parents in Patara, a city on the coast of what is modern day Turkey. Orphaned when his parents died from a plague that swept the region, he was raised under the care of an uncle and the Orthodox Church.

Believing that he had been called to devote his life to religious service, Nicholas donated much of his inheritance to the poor and joined the monastery. Following in the footsteps of Christ, he followed the pilgrimage routes to Egypt and Palestine. Soon after his return home to Patara, Nicholas was appointed to serve as bishop of an Orthodox church in the nearby city of Myra.

In Nicholas’ day, Myra was a major port for the Eastern Roman Empire situated directly opposite Egypt, on the far side of the Mediterranean. In the Bible Myra is mentioned as a stopping point where Paul, under arrest for inciting a riot in Jerusalem, was transferred to a ship bound for Rome (Acts 27:5-6).

The Legend

The best known legend associated with St. Nicholas would lay the ancient foundation upon which the Santa Claus legend is based. It tells of a poor man who had three beautiful teenage daughters. This man had once been a noble, but, through a series of misfortunes, was nearly destitute. So much so that he considered selling his daughters into prostitution, as he could not provide the necessary dowries for his girls to become acceptable brides.

Soon Nicholas came to hear whispers of the poor man’s plight, and took it upon himself to devise a more saintly solution.

At the dead of night Nicholas went to the man’s house, climbed up on the roof and dropped three small bags of gold down the chimney. Now, earlier that evening, the man’s daughters had washed the laundry, and their stockings were hung at the fireplace to dry. Miraculously, each bag of gold fell into one of the stockings belonging to each daughter.

The next morning the family awoke to find the gold that an anonymous benefactor had left for them. Due to the generosity of Nicholas (whose identity would eventually be discovered), the man and his daughters would go on to live the proverbial “happily ever after” life.

Black Saint

For centuries after the death of Bishop Nicholas, frequently given as December 6th, 343 AD, legends of his miraculous acts and charitable deeds continued to spread. By the 9th century in the East, and the 11th century in the West, Nicholas was one of the most revered figures in all of Christendom. His tomb at Myra became a popular place of pilgrimage, and visitors often reported of being healed from sickness there.

For the Church of Europe religious relics from the East, including the remains of its holy men, were of immense value -- in both religious and economic terms. And in those days churches were all about the business of acquiring relics. So much so that on May 9, 1087 AD, a group of men from the Italian port city of Bari, raided the tomb of Nicholas at Myra, and stole the bishop’s remains. Back in Bari, a basilica named for Nicholas was built to shelter the coveted relics. They lie beneath the altar in the crypt to this day.

In the right transept, a side chapel at the Basilica of St. Nicholas, on a wall above a priceless silver altar hangs a nearly life-sized painting of the bishop of Myra. It is called “San Nicola Nero,” which translates from the Italian as “St. Nicholas the Black” or “Black St. Nicholas.” And positioned at the center of this surprising painting is Nicholas of Myra, rendered as a bushy-bearded black man.

The identity of the artist who created the piece, dated to between the 17th and 18th century, seems to have been lost to history. But for centuries now his beautiful work has been a spiritual focal point for parishioners and pilgrims of the Bari Basilica.

Out of the painting, the eyes of St. Nicholas stare forward, firmly fixed upon the viewer. Nicholas’ right hand is raised in the gesture of benediction, while his left hand holds up the Book of the Gospels. Atop the Gospels rests three gold balls (or coins), symbolizing the legendary act that redeemed the lives of a poor man and his daughters.

Hidden Tradition

To say the least, the “San Nicola Nero” painting is a surprising image, one full of meaning and reverence. Not so surprising, however, is the lack of documentation anywhere which tells how -- in addition to the now commonplace images of St. Nicholas as white skinned -- for centuries, images like this one at the Bari Basilica, have depicted the patron saint of Christmas with the features of African or Asiatic black populations.

Also in Bari, in an 11th century chapel inside the Norman Castle of Sannicandro, a weathered statue of a Black St. Nicholas endures. And elsewhere in Southern Italy, at the churches of Aradeo, Maglie, Mileto and Picerno, centuries-old statues and/or paintings of San Nicola Nero prevail.

Outside Italy, in Spain and Russia, where St. Nicholas is one of the most revered of all the saints, images that depict him as a dark skinned man are preserved. As far away as South America, at the Cathedral of San Nicolas de Bari in La Rioja, Argentina, a life-sized statue of “San Nicolas Negro” or “Black St. Nicholas” has been a celebrated icon of the church since 1640, when it was brought to the region by the Spanish.

“His representations in art are as various as his alleged miracles,” is the very most the Catholic Encyclopedia will offer a curious researcher on the image of St. Nicholas. And met with an old-time secret so guardedly kept, one cannot help but wonder if there are still other places left in the world where the old image of St. Nicholas with a blackamoor’s complexion lingers.

Image Image

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Unread post by TwoGlockz » December 18th, 2006, 12:44 pm

Black Christmas mothaf**ka'z :lol: .

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Unread post by punamusta » December 18th, 2006, 4:09 pm

Tre wrote:
“Saint Nicholas, on whom the character Santa Claus is based, was of Northern European descent,”

But, truth is, he wasn’t.
Santa Claus is an interesting figure as it so different in different parts of the world. Or atleast it used to be before Coca-Cola sold their image of Santa Claus to everywhere around the globe.

Here in Finland Santa Claus (our word for Santa Claus don't have any references to anything 'saint' or even Christian) is a modern modification of an old saga figure/creature of fruitfulness. That creature's "job" was to travel from house to house and bring light to defeat the dark days, as meaning of turning the winter into spring. According to myths he/it was also drunk and sometimes gave presents to good kids, and spanked the bad kids.

And he/it didn't wear red, but grey or fur coat. Even when I was a kid I remeber the so-called Santa having a grey shirt and red pants. Nowadays, as I said, the f*cking Coca-Cola Santa is taking over even in here and "Santas" tend to have a fully red ourfit. It's truly a shame. Folklores will be replaced by some American, commercialized b*llshit. Makes me angry.


Here's some kind of picture of that figure of fruitfulness ("Nuuttipukki" in finnish, don't know how to translate that into english) and his helper elf:

Image

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Unread post by perongregory » December 18th, 2006, 5:24 pm

TwoGlockz wrote:Black Christmas mothaf**ka'z :lol: .
Haha...yes indeed.

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Unread post by BlaKK » December 18th, 2006, 5:29 pm

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Unread post by TeeKay » December 18th, 2006, 7:39 pm

so anyone hear havin a good xmas dinner in the next few days?

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Unread post by johnnny » December 18th, 2006, 9:59 pm

^-- yep, and santa claus is the last thing on my mind i stopped believing in that shit when i was 2

<--- doesnt care what colour he was or is -- the message is the same too me

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Unread post by dutch » December 19th, 2006, 6:05 am

We in Holland like said in the post of Trey have Sinter Klaas.Allot of people of Holland are against Santa Claus because Santa Claus is a imagination and American culture, while Sinter Klaas really existed and is Dutch culture.And i can say one thing as a child you were scared shitless for Zwarte Piet (Black Piet).Cause everybody's parents would say to there child if you do bad he will take you with him to Spain to be punished for all the bad things you did the last year.So if Sinter Klaas visited your school everybody would just be scared for Black Piet with his bag.I can bet you this,the guy who would play Black Piet for that day would have the time of his live.Grabbing childeren saying he would take them with him,childeren would cry and scream for there mammie's and shit.That shit is funny.

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Unread post by SniperSVD » December 19th, 2006, 10:05 am

santas jolly big ass stay pink then a mutha fukkuh since he lives on the north pole aint nan one inch of his body gonna be seein no freezin ass sun getting exposed to the elements.

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 2:08 pm

if color doesn't matter, why do white people keep on depicting non-white people of importance as white?

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Unread post by johnnny » December 19th, 2006, 2:15 pm

i dunno

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Unread post by johnnny » December 19th, 2006, 2:30 pm

so santa is from the equator and not the north pole?

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 3:09 pm

perongregory wrote:if color doesn't matter, why do white people keep on depicting non-white people of importance as white?
Like who? :roll: Free BS generalizations. 'White' and 'black' (where do YOU draw the line), you're playing your own game. Please tell me what those classifications mean to you. That's like me saying why do black people keep on depicting non-black people of importance as black? It's as if anywhere in your head where you see a person seems to be leaning a slightly bit more towards your own racist views (divisions of skin color and whatnot) of people, you 'claim' a person? What kind of thinking is that?

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 3:12 pm

I'm just waitin for you to let it all out, you let some of it out on the Berber thread, but keep it goin, let the racial pejoratives spill out. Proddin and pokin, exposin the white underbelly of racism.

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 3:34 pm

Hahahahaha :lol: Check this out, I throw ONE single bait and he bites on it like if it were everything in the world. What a predictable fool. I was here on these boards a few years back, I was also on gangstachronicles back then, never had a problem with anybody on something as stupid as skin color. But I can see your kind a mile away, I'm only really exposing you as you are.

The true definition of a racist, longing to the illusive boundaries because I'm understanding wherever you may be in life, it's the only thing you now got left, (false) racial pride upon something you didn't even have a decision of being borth with? How can you be proud of something you never even created or had a word on? What a bunch of fools.

Yeah everybody please go check out the berber trade, where I share some neutral historic info I took the trouble of searching and the ONLY thing he comes up with again is skin color and where I expose him for what he is. That's like échec et mat ,you left your king wide in the open. Just like it's now scientifically said, races now only exist for 'racist' peoples head and imagination and are not for real. Say a lie a thousand times and people'll believe it's the truth.

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 3:43 pm

Capo wrote:Hahahahaha :lol: Check this out, I throw ONE single bait and he bites on it like if it were everything in the world. What a predictable fool. I was here on these boards a few years back, I was also on gangstachronicles back then, never had a problem with anybody on something as stupid as skin color. But I can see your kind a mile away, I'm only really exposing you as you are.

The true definition of a racist, longing to the illusive boundaries because I'm understanding wherever you may be in life, it's the only thing you now got left, (false) racial pride upon something you didn't even have a decision of being borth with? How can you be proud of something you never even created or had a word on? What a bunch of fools.

Yeah everybody please go check out the berber trade, where I share some neutral historic info I took the trouble of searching and the ONLY thing he comes up with again is skin color and where I expose him for what he is. That's like échec et mat ,you left your king wide in the open. Just like it's now scientifically said, races now only exist for 'racist' peoples head and imagination and are not for real. Say a lie a thousand times and people'll believe it's the truth.
I'm laughin at you thinking you exposin something, and puttin yourself above race, yet you stay talkin and commentin on it. But I thought you were above it? I thought you weren't apart of my kind? Evidently you're not, so shut that silly shit down. If you were above the whole race thing, like you claim, and like it is as easy as you say it is in a world largely viewed from that perspective, you wouldn't jump into these threads talkin about race, trying to 'neutrally' disprove claims by other racial groups. You wouldn't even comment on this forum you stupid ass. I'm above race, but let me talk about, and then say you're wrong when you take part in the convo. Nah, that stupid reverse psychology shit don't get no play over here. Take yo bitch ass to the fashion thread if you not into race, and stop givin your opinion on something that scientifically don't exist. Dumb ass hypocrite.

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 4:07 pm

perongregory wrote:
Capo wrote:Hahahahaha :lol: Check this out, I throw ONE single bait and he bites on it like if it were everything in the world. What a predictable fool. I was here on these boards a few years back, I was also on gangstachronicles back then, never had a problem with anybody on something as stupid as skin color. But I can see your kind a mile away, I'm only really exposing you as you are.

The true definition of a racist, longing to the illusive boundaries because I'm understanding wherever you may be in life, it's the only thing you now got left, (false) racial pride upon something you didn't even have a decision of being borth with? How can you be proud of something you never even created or had a word on? What a bunch of fools.

Yeah everybody please go check out the berber trade, where I share some neutral historic info I took the trouble of searching and the ONLY thing he comes up with again is skin color and where I expose him for what he is. That's like échec et mat ,you left your king wide in the open. Just like it's now scientifically said, races now only exist for 'racist' peoples head and imagination and are not for real. Say a lie a thousand times and people'll believe it's the truth.
I'm laughin at you thinking you exposin something, and puttin yourself above race, yet you stay talkin and commentin on it. But I thought you were above it? I thought you weren't apart of my kind? Evidently you're not, so shut that silly shit down. If you were above the whole race thing, like you claim, and like it is as easy as you say it is in a world largely viewed from that perspective, you wouldn't jump into these threads talkin about race, trying to 'neutrally' disprove claims by other racial groups. You wouldn't even comment on this forum you stupid ass. I'm above race, but let me talk about, and then say you're wrong when you take part in the convo. Nah, that stupid reverse psychology shit don't get no play over here. Take yo bitch ass to the fashion thread if you not into race, and stop givin your opinion on something that scientifically don't exist. Dumb ass hypocrite.
I'm not exposing anything other than YOU and answering some other guy's question on what he asked about whatever lil I may know and looked up. I don't TAKE or CLAIM 'fictitious skin color sides' like you do. I just say it how it is. As for speaking on it: when someone does not talk, means he accepts, and I don't accept some of the generalized BS I could fall upon so I speak on it. :roll:

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 4:15 pm

Capo wrote:
perongregory wrote:
Capo wrote:Hahahahaha :lol: Check this out, I throw ONE single bait and he bites on it like if it were everything in the world. What a predictable fool. I was here on these boards a few years back, I was also on gangstachronicles back then, never had a problem with anybody on something as stupid as skin color. But I can see your kind a mile away, I'm only really exposing you as you are.

The true definition of a racist, longing to the illusive boundaries because I'm understanding wherever you may be in life, it's the only thing you now got left, (false) racial pride upon something you didn't even have a decision of being borth with? How can you be proud of something you never even created or had a word on? What a bunch of fools.

Yeah everybody please go check out the berber trade, where I share some neutral historic info I took the trouble of searching and the ONLY thing he comes up with again is skin color and where I expose him for what he is. That's like échec et mat ,you left your king wide in the open. Just like it's now scientifically said, races now only exist for 'racist' peoples head and imagination and are not for real. Say a lie a thousand times and people'll believe it's the truth.
I'm laughin at you thinking you exposin something, and puttin yourself above race, yet you stay talkin and commentin on it. But I thought you were above it? I thought you weren't apart of my kind? Evidently you're not, so shut that silly shit down. If you were above the whole race thing, like you claim, and like it is as easy as you say it is in a world largely viewed from that perspective, you wouldn't jump into these threads talkin about race, trying to 'neutrally' disprove claims by other racial groups. You wouldn't even comment on this forum you stupid ass. I'm above race, but let me talk about, and then say you're wrong when you take part in the convo. Nah, that stupid reverse psychology shit don't get no play over here. Take yo bitch ass to the fashion thread if you not into race, and stop givin your opinion on something that scientifically don't exist. Dumb ass hypocrite.
I'm not exposing anything other than YOU and answering some other guy's question on what he asked about whatever lil I may know and looked up. I don't TAKE or CLAIM 'fictitious skin color sides' like you do. I just say it how it is. As for speaking on it: when someone does not talk, means he accepts, and I don't accept some of the generalized BS I could fall upon so I speak on it. :roll:
Then get off my nuts. or don't talk foolish when I ask you a legit question. The problem is you know you overacted with how you responded to my question and now your trying to flip the script. You claim you don't care about race (even though it's apparent you do, since you are usually in here, and providing 'evidence' that poeple aren't black). Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds hearts and souls of billions of people, therefore influencing how they act and treat others. I'm not gonna sit back and say, well technically this doesn't exist or from this knowledge I deduce that this shouldn't be this way, and then ignore it. It exist, it's real, it affects me and you (no matter what you believe), and therefore I'm gonna comment on it, like you feel you have the right to comment on it.

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 4:44 pm

Yeah, I guess you're right, I care so much about 'races' I say it how it is instead of taking 'race sides'. :roll: As for speaking of some people like Jesus which to me probably wouldn'tve been black african looking for several reasons I posted up, it's not to denigrate black african looking people (comon, give me a chance to speak on the good stuff instead of starting all these controversial black threads JUST to cause controversy and I'll speak FOR it), it's to speak on something that to me probably wouldn'nt without EVEN saying he was white skinned like me :roll: It's my fault if some blacks on here chose controversial race subjects exactly to show how much him or such was on their 'side'. I'm not here for controversy and I don't run after it neither so that I don't have to then be all surprised when people come up with differing thoughts that the non controversial people usual accept as probable fact.

Oh, and I didn't know there were races of hearts and souls too? :) Damn, crazy as to what limits a racist'll BELIEVE (your words) and you then take part in the RELIGION (Beliefs) threads..

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 5:03 pm

Capo wrote:Yeah, I guess you're right, I care so much about 'races' I say it how it is instead of taking 'race sides'. :roll: As for speaking of some people like Jesus which to me probably wouldn'tve been black african looking for several reasons I posted up, it's not to denigrate black african looking people (comon, give me a chance to speak on the good stuff instead of starting all these controversial black threads JUST to cause controversy and I'll speak FOR it), it's to speak on something that to me probably wouldn'nt without EVEN saying he was white skinned like me :roll: It's my fault if some blacks on here chose controversial race subjects exactly to show how much him or such was on their 'side'. I'm not here for controversy and I don't run after it neither so that I don't have to then be all surprised when people come up with differing thoughts that the non controversial people usual accept as probable fact.

Oh, and I didn't know there were races of hearts and souls too? :) Damn, crazy as to what limits a racist'll BELIEVE (your words) and you then take part in the RELIGION (Beliefs) threads..
you don't say it how it is. You say it how you believe it is with supposed 'scientific' research. How is this are any other topic like it controversial? the only reason they are controversial is because peoploe like you and the whites who took offense at that British paper writing that Jesus is the most influential black leader or whatever, get so butt hurt, and then post 'facts' if you guys dont let your want to scream out racial pejoratives take over. You can't flip the script homeboy. If you don't care you wouldn't be commenting.

I didn't know there were races of hearts and souls either. Probably you can enlighten me to this topic you've brought up. Seems interesting, even though i don't see how it has anything to do with what we are talking about...

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Unread post by punamusta » December 19th, 2006, 5:10 pm

perongregory wrote:Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds hearts and souls of billions of people, therefore influencing how they act and treat others.
I think that the concpet of race exists just because a lot of people keep talking about "race" and how different "races" differs from each others, etc. People should start to talk about a cultural differences instead of racial differences. Then we would get somewhere and would really learn something.




And that "if color doesn't matter, why do white people keep on depicting non-white people of importance as white?" I didn't understand. Too complicated sentence structure for me as I don't speak english as my native language (I don't always understand everything that is said here, although I usually get the big picture).... But if that was in some way ment for me, because of my comments of how's the "Santa" is viewed in here according to sagas, could you explain that sentence in other words?

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 5:18 pm

punamusta wrote:
perongregory wrote:Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds hearts and souls of billions of people, therefore influencing how they act and treat others.
I think that the concpet of race exists just because a lot of people keep talking about "race" and how different "races" differs from each others, etc. People should start to talk about a cultural differences instead of racial differences. Then we would get somewhere and would really learn something.




And that "if color doesn't matter, why do white people keep on depicting non-white people of importance as white?" I didn't understand. Too complicated sentence structure for me as I don't speak english as my native language (I don't always understand everything that is said here, although I usually get the big picture).... But if that was in some way ment for me, because of my comments of how's the "Santa" is viewed in here according to sagas, could you explain that sentence in other words?
I think as a world we can eliminate the idea of race, but alot of history, discrimination, and actions, and states have to change. It is a modern phenomena for people to view others in terms of race, but it has been such a detrimental and ingrained ideology, that it will take a lot of work to overcome this way of looking at the world.

The Santa comment was inresponse to how a lot of white people say skin color doesn't matter for influential figures, yet jesus, obviously not white, the egyptians, and santa who was a black saint, even ghengis Kahn in this 50's movie, and so on are turned white. I'm saying, if color doesn't matter then let their original color stand and stop turning these figures white.

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Unread post by punamusta » December 19th, 2006, 5:36 pm

perongregory wrote: I think as a world we can eliminate the idea of race, but alot of history, discrimination, and actions, and states have to change. It is a modern phenomena for people to view others in terms of race, but it has been such a detrimental and ingrained ideology, that it will take a lot of work to overcome this way of looking at the world.
It's true that it's very ingrained ideology for a lot of people and it's sure that it would/will take a lot of work to wipe that racial based thinking of off people's minds, but if the options are that people will speak about "race" and devide people by "race" to the end of days or that SOMEDAY in the future the concept of race is finally buried... then I'll most definetly choose the latter option and try to set an example for the other people by not talking about "race" or dividing people based on their "race".


The Santa comment was inresponse to how a lot of white people say skin color doesn't matter for influential figures, yet jesus, obviously not white, the egyptians, and santa who was a black saint, even ghengis Kahn in this 50's movie, and so on are turned white. I'm saying, if color doesn't matter then let their original color stand and stop turning these figures white.
I realize that that kind of distortion has happened and keeps happening. I can't think of any other solution, but keep making a noise and come up with facts, and hopefully someday it will change.

I personally don't care a bit about the skin colour of Jesus or Santa Claus (I'm not a religious person at all). It's obvious that Jesus (if he truly lived) wasn't white and blue eyed, that much I know. And about Santa Claus I don't know nothing else than this f*cking Coca-Cola image they created. As I said earlier, for example here in Finland "Santa" has traditionally had nothing to do with Christianity or saints or anything - it was based on a old saga. So here the so-called "Santa" is white and has been white for hundreds of years or even longer.

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 5:48 pm

But you see the thing is it's not about bragging how anybody or who WASN'T black, it's about simply saying it how it is.

About Gengis Khan, nobody on here's saying he was white looking like me. Same for egyptians (for example did you even read up about how Ramses II and some of his family were REDHEADS?), and others were black african looking ALSO. Nobody is saying they were white looking like me. It's as if you're inventing yourself 'enemies' and actually think you're 'fighting' against them.

As for Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas (check up in Life)

He wasn't white skinned looking LIKE me, so? Who said he was and who's cheering for whatever? But he WASN'T black african looking neither. That's why I asked you WHERE do you draw your line in YOUR 'racial imaginary' definitions because it seems sometimes it's playing with words so they say whatever you want them to say, just like statistics can come up with any stastical result you want.


As for the races of souls and hearts thing:

Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds
hearts and souls
of billions of people

It exist, it's real, it affects me and you (no matter what you believe)

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Unread post by punamusta » December 19th, 2006, 6:00 pm

Capo wrote:Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds
hearts and souls
of billions of people

It exist, it's real, it affects me and you (no matter what you believe)
Lets imagine that every single person in this globe wouldn't believe in "races", then how the concept of "race" would still exist? It wouldn't. And that should be the goal for all of us. By saying something like "well, that's how it is, you can't change that" is keeping the problem alive by being part of the problem, not part of the solution.

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Unread post by Capo » December 19th, 2006, 6:12 pm

Exactly, race is a BS term. There are different ETHNICITIES though and other ethnicities in the making even now (although the encouragement of 'multiculturalism' today where cultures are like frozen in time and in their stereotypes seem to make that blocked for the moment). There are no pure race, ethnicity, whatsoever though, everybody is mixed deep down. Wether it were way back in Europe with the maaany tribes (Gallic, Romans, etc, etc), Asia, America (Olmecs being black, Mayas, etc)...History is deep. It should be more about a cultural thing, color of skin having no importance, where a vision of something greater than skin color unites. Anybody can take some, as long as you leave some also.

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Unread post by johnnny » December 19th, 2006, 10:13 pm

-ok i see alot of fighting between my brothers on this board so ill give my two cents

-Jesus, Santa Clause and Ghenghis Khan Were, Arabic, Arabic and mongoloid respectivily

-anyways, what are you getting for christmas? im getting weed weed, sweaters and a new cell phone :D

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Unread post by perongregory » December 19th, 2006, 10:43 pm

Capo wrote:But you see the thing is it's not about bragging how anybody or who WASN'T black, it's about simply saying it how it is.

About Gengis Khan, nobody on here's saying he was white looking like me. Same for egyptians (for example did you even read up about how Ramses II and some of his family were REDHEADS?), and others were black african looking ALSO. Nobody is saying they were white looking like me. It's as if you're inventing yourself 'enemies' and actually think you're 'fighting' against them.

As for Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas (check up in Life)

He wasn't white skinned looking LIKE me, so? Who said he was and who's cheering for whatever? But he WASN'T black african looking neither. That's why I asked you WHERE do you draw your line in YOUR 'racial imaginary' definitions because it seems sometimes it's playing with words so they say whatever you want them to say, just like statistics can come up with any stastical result you want.


As for the races of souls and hearts thing:

Now race doesn't exist, but the concept exist in the minds
hearts and souls
of billions of people

It exist, it's real, it affects me and you (no matter what you believe)
Who said you are anyone on this forum are my enemies? You keep on latching to this frame of thought. You keep on combating others on what they view as certain figures racial makeup. You are making it a war with 'enemies'. These threads were about the racial makeup and changing view of certain groups and people...so what do you think the talk is gonna be in them? Either someone saying yeah, that's right, thats the race that person is, or no, that's not the race of that person. You are the one who started with the idiot and blackie remarks, in the attempt of making enemies.

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Unread post by Tre » December 20th, 2006, 2:17 am

Capo wrote:
As for Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas (check up in Life)

He wasn't white skinned looking LIKE me, so? Who said he was and who's cheering for whatever? But he WASN'T black african looking neither. That's why I asked you WHERE do you draw your line in YOUR 'racial imaginary' definitions because it seems sometimes it's playing with words so they say whatever you want them to say, just like statistics can come up with any stastical result you want.
San Nicola Nero in which the Santa Klaus fable is based… We’ll that’s his name “St. Nicholas the Black” or “Black St. Nicholas.” The man in the picture is black and from Africa. So what do you mean by he’s not 'black African looking?'

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Unread post by Capo » December 20th, 2006, 4:06 am

He was DARK SKINNED like people from that region of the world (modern Turkey), not African black looking with the lips and eyes, THAT'S what I'm saying. As for the pictures:

http://www.stnicholascenter.org/Brix?pageID=462

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Unread post by Tre » December 20th, 2006, 5:20 am

African blacks range from dark skin to light skin. According to mtDNA, African blacks are naturally more diverse than other groups. Japanese are 15% less diverse than African blacks, Amerindians 25% less diverse. Also, you can’t categorize black people by just going by their lips and eyes since there are different stocks, and types. But seriously, I believe the reason the article even mentioned Santa’s helper ‘Black Piet’ was to provide an explanation as to how he (St. Nicholas the Black) ended up in Turkey of all places. I believe the article was suggesting that St. Nicholas the Black might have been a black moor during the Moors occupation of that region.

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Unread post by perongregory » December 20th, 2006, 5:25 am

he'll just tell you the moors are berbers and arabs are some shit.

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