Organized Crime groups ranks; Ndrangheta, Russian, Yakuzu...

There has been an increase in gang and youth groups in many Western European cities that have seen an influx of immigrants. There is also a significant organized crime coming from Eastern Europe In this section discuss Austria [Österreich], Denmark [ Danmark], England, France [FRANSS], Finland, Germany [Deutschland], Greece [Ελληνική, Elliniki], Ireland, Italy [italiana], Netherlands [Nederland], Norway [Norge], Rossiyskaya], Scotland, Spain [España] Sweden [Sverige] and the UK including any place on the Western European continent.
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Discuss anything about Western European street gangs and organized crime.
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Organized Crime groups ranks; Ndrangheta, Russian, Yakuzu...

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 9th, 2009, 3:23 am

What are the ranks of the various Organized Crime elements that you know of?

For instance: we all know that LCN typically has boss/ub/consig/capo/soldier/associate. What about the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, Russian Mafia, Yakuza, Drug Cartels, etc?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by VostokSila » February 9th, 2009, 6:02 am

lol I know of military-style ranks in Izmailovskaya but nothing more... except for that I believe that there are like a corporation ranks.. boss, manager etc.. nothing special.
Sometimes there are no specific ranks, people know who is more important and who is not as much.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 9th, 2009, 10:50 pm

Lee23Claire wrote:What are the ranks of the various Organized Crime elements that you know of?

For instance: we all know that LCN typically has boss/ub/consig/capo/soldier/associate. What about the Camorra, 'Ndrangheta, Russian Mafia, Yakuza, Drug Cartels, etc?
The Cosa Nostra in Sicily is somewhat different than it's counterpart in the United States. Each clan has a boss or capo. It's second in command is the sotto capo, which also acts as a regent (representative to other clans while the boss is in prison) and as an advisor. This is sort of like the underboss and consigliere combined. While each clan has a number of lieutenants at the mid-level who oversee certain operations, they are not really captains in the sense of the American mob. Though the Sicilian Mafia itself is rather hierarchial, with bosses at the Commission level, provincial level, mandamento level, and clan level, the makeup within each of the clans individually is relatively fluid. The same could be said about the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta clans, though both syndicates are not as hierarchial as the Cosa Nostra.

The rankings of the Yakuza are both similar and different when compared to the Mafia. There is the Kumicho, who is the head boss. The Wagagashira is the second in commmand, and so is comparable to a Mafia underboss. The Fukuhonbucho could be compared to a Mafia captain, as he oversees his own underlings and operations undereneath the Kumicho and Wagagashira. The Saiko Komon is a high-level advisor, comparable to the consigliere.

The larger Chinese Triad groups are umbrella organizations who are made up of smaller sub-groups like the Yakuza. Traditionally the Chinese Triads have been very hierarchial with a number of ranks, including some that were simply ceremonial. Many of these were known by certain number designations. For example, "489" was the top boss of a Triad group. "438" referred to a number of different leaders directly under his control. "426" usually referred to a member who carried out enforcement work, i.e. killings, beatings, etc. and who enforced discipline. "432" was a member who acted as a liason or representative both internally as well as to other groups outside the organization. "49" was reserved for members of the lowest rank. In the Triad, like the Yakuza, there is a certain father/son or brother/little brother dynamic. I guess this is somewhat comparable to the Mafia terminology of Godfather. It should be noted that these traditional rankings are, for the most part, no longer totally applicable. I've read that only the Sun Yee On, the most powerful Triad group, still holds these traditional ranks. Other Triad groups are now much less formal.

The Russian syndicates are essentially umbrella groups like the Yakuza and Triad clans, but are not as definitely hierarchial as either the Yakuza, Triads, or the Mafia. Each of the major Russian syndicates have under their control any number of smaller groups who do their dirty work, carry out enforcement, etc. As such, there is a supreme boss over the entire group but any number of lieutenants underneath who oversee the smaller organizations or certain operations. I of course am using the word "lieutenant" in the general sense. As Vostok said, sometimes there is a military sense to these ranks. Certain sub-groups being called "brigades" and what not.

The Colombian and Mexican cartels don't really have name-title ranks in the traditional sense. They have always been formed more as a modern day corporation, with people overseeing certain parts of the organization's activities. One or more persons may be over production. Others over transporation. Others over enforcement and bribery. Others over money laundering. Etc.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 10th, 2009, 9:26 pm

thewestside wrote:The Cosa Nostra in Sicily is somewhat different than it's counterpart in the United States. Each clan has a boss or capo. It's second in command is the sotto capo, which also acts as a regent (representative to other clans while the boss is in prison) and as an advisor. This is sort of like the underboss and consigliere combined. While each clan has a number of lieutenants at the mid-level who oversee certain operations, they are not really captains in the sense of the American mob. Though the Sicilian Mafia itself is rather hierarchial, with bosses at the Commission level, provincial level, mandamento level, and clan level, the makeup within each of the clans individually is relatively fluid. The same could be said about the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta clans, though both syndicates are not as hierarchial as the Cosa Nostra.
Would you say the ranks of the Sicilian Mafia are looser/less defined as LCN?
The rankings of the Yakuza are both similar and different when compared to the Mafia. There is the Kumicho, who is the head boss. The Wagagashira is the second in commmand, and so is comparable to a Mafia underboss. The #%@& could be compared to a Mafia captain, as he oversees his own underlings and operations undereneath the Kumicho and Wagagashira. The Saiko Komon is a high-level advisor, comparable to the consigliere.
From what I've read, Yakuza ranks are quite complicated. There's an overall outfit, and within that outfit are smaller outfits. The way I understood it was that each sub-outfit is like a crew in the Mafia except larger, and more independent. Is that somewhat the case?
The larger Chinese Triad groups are umbrella organizations who are made up of smaller sub-groups like the Yakuza. Traditionally the Chinese Triads have been very hierarchial with a number of ranks, including some that were simply ceremonial. Many of these were known by certain number designations. For example, "489" was the top boss of a Triad group. "438" referred to a number of different leaders directly under his control. "426" usually referred to a member who carried out enforcement work, i.e. killings, beatings, etc. and who enforced discipline. "432" was a member who acted as a liason or representative both internally as well as to other groups outside the organization. "49" was reserved for members of the lowest rank. In the Triad, like the Yakuza, there is a certain father/son or brother/little brother dynamic. I guess this is somewhat comparable to the Mafia terminology of Godfather. It should be noted that these traditional rankings are, for the most part, no longer totally applicable. I've read that only the Sun Yee On, the most powerful Triad group, still holds these traditional ranks. Other Triad groups are now much less formal.


So the Triad ranks are somewhat similar to the Yakuza, but a little more ceremonial?
The Russian syndicates are essentially umbrella groups like the Yakuza and Triad clans, but are not as definitely hierarchial as either the Yakuza, Triads, or the Mafia. Each of the major Russian syndicates have under their control any number of smaller groups who do their dirty work, carry out enforcement, etc. As such, there is a supreme boss over the entire group but any number of lieutenants underneath who oversee the smaller organizations or certain operations. I of course am using the word "lieutenant" in the general sense. As Vostok said, sometimes there is a military sense to these ranks. Certain sub-groups being called "brigades" and what not.
Would say, the Solntsevskaya bratva have specifically defined ranks, or is it more or less Sergei is the boss and he has subordinates in varying importance?
The Colombian and Mexican cartels don't really have name-title ranks in the traditional sense. They have always been formed more as a modern day corporation, with people overseeing certain parts of the organization's activities. One or more persons may be over production. Others over transporation. Others over enforcement and bribery. Others over money laundering. Etc.
So, Cartels are more or less confederations of criminals who control various operations? Would that be why there's so much in-fighting?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 10th, 2009, 9:35 pm

Also, are there any other organizations that have "made men" and ceremonies like the LCN and Sicilian Mafia?

Not sure if I asked and you answered this already, but does the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta have defined ranks like the Mafia?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 11th, 2009, 7:07 pm

Lee23Claire wrote:Would you say the ranks of the Sicilian Mafia are looser/less defined as LCN?
Well, the ranks within an American LCN family are not that hierarchial either. You simply have the three members of the hierarchy - the Boss, Underboss, and Consigliere - and then a number of Captains who each head their own sub-groups of Soldiers and Associates. But I suppose this is hierarchial compared to many of the new ethnic groups, who are more loosely organized, beign considered to be more "criminal enterprises" than "organized crime."

But to answer your question, yes, the makeup within an individual Cosa Nostra clan is not as intricate. Like I said, you still have a boss, as well as a second-in-command who often acts somewhat like both an underboss and consigliere. But the size of the average clan (maybe 25 formally inducted members) doesn't usualy call for many sub-groups or crews.
From what I've read, Yakuza ranks are quite complicated. There's an overall outfit, and within that outfit are smaller outfits. The way I understood it was that each sub-outfit is like a crew in the Mafia except larger, and more independent. Is that somewhat the case?
Yes. The Yakuza groups are what you would call "umbrella organizations." Much like the major Russian syndicates. They have any number of sub-groups below them. Not exactly like a crew within a Mafia family but similar. For instance, out of the thousands of people who belong to the Yamaguchi Gumi clan, only about 100 are actually formal members.
So the Triad ranks are somewhat similar to the Yakuza, but a little more ceremonial?
They once were. But like I said, the Sun Yee On groups is apparently the only Triad society that still uses these traditional ranks. The Triads, as a whole, are probably less hierarchial and ceremonial than the Yakuza now.
Would say, the Solntsevskaya bratva have specifically defined ranks, or is it more or less Sergei is the boss and he has subordinates in varying importance?


Mikhailov is the top leader, but the group has several others immediately below him. And further down the organization you have those who essentially head their own organizations but do so under the name and authority of the Solntsevskaya syndicate.
So, Cartels are more or less confederations of criminals who control various operations? Would that be why there's so much in-fighting?
That's a good way to put it. Especially now as the drug business in Colombia has become more fractured and you have various smaller groups that are engaged in different parts of the industry. The Mexicans are now at where the Colombians were 20 years ago. You have a few major groups jockying for position.
Also, are there any other organizations that have "made men" and ceremonies like the LCN and Sicilian Mafia?


The Yakuza has induction ceremonies that make formal members, much like the Mafia. The Russian Vors are the Russian equivalent of "made men" in the Italian Mafia.

I usually don't refer to movies to explain my point but these are all good recreations of the various initiation ceremonies.

An American LCN initiation ceremony from an episode of The Sopranos -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRKb6ekg0Dk

A Japanese Yakuza initiation ceremony from the film American Yakuza -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5klXi7ybTtU

I tried to find a clip of it but couldn't locate the Vor initiation scene in the film Eastern Promises. One former law enforcement officer told me it's surprsingly accurate. It's a good movie anyway, so I would recommend it and you will get a good idea of what a Vor ceremony is like. Here are a couple photos from the scene -
hoberman.jpg
hoberman.jpg (22.77 KiB) Viewed 6537 times
easternpromises_468x614.jpg
easternpromises_468x614.jpg (71.58 KiB) Viewed 6533 times
Not sure if I asked and you answered this already, but does the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta have defined ranks like the Mafia?
Both the 'Ndrangheta and Camorra, like the Cosa Nostra, have the uomini d’onore (men of honor), which seperates those who have been formally initiated from those who haven't. The picciotti d’onore of the Camorra are similar to the soldati in the Cosa Nostra - members of the lowest rank or soldiers. The quintino in the 'Ndrangheta are sub-bosses who could be compared to the caporegime in the Cosa Nostra. And the capobastone in the 'Ndrangheta is like the capomafia (boss) in the Cosa Nostra. In the Camorra there is a somewhat informal divide between the "higher" Camorra (those that are involved in more sophisticated operations, legitimate buisness, etc.) and those in the "lower) Camorra (those that are involved in things like drugs, theft, etc.) The 'Ndrangheta is more horizontally organized, rather than vertically, like the Cosa Nostra. Clans are almost solely on blood lineage and marriage. The Camorra, as a whole, is even more loosely organized. The Cosa Nostra, as a whole, is more hierarchial. You have an individual clan. Three clans make up a mandamento. The chief boss of a mandamento also sits on the interprovincial comission, which is headed by a capo-provincia. And at the top is the ruling commission itself.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 12th, 2009, 1:13 am

thewestside wrote: Well, the ranks within an American LCN family are not that hierarchial either. You simply have the three members of the hierarchy - the Boss, Underboss, and Consigliere - and then a number of Captains who each head their own sub-groups of Soldiers and Associates. But I suppose this is hierarchial compared to many of the new ethnic groups, who are more loosely organized, beign considered to be more "criminal enterprises" than "organized crime."

But to answer your question, yes, the makeup within an individual Cosa Nostra clan is not as intricate. Like I said, you still have a boss, as well as a second-in-command who often acts somewhat like both an underboss and consigliere. But the size of the average clan (maybe 25 formally inducted members) doesn't usualy call for many sub-groups or crews.
So, within the Mafia do you think they ever refer to people who hold specific ranks, or is it they just know who's up and who's down, if that makes sense.

So, in the typical Sicilian clan it pretty much is a boss, his aide, and then soldiers in varying degrees of power? Why do you think Sicilian clans are relatively small compared to the Five Families? Would it just be because of how they were setup in 1929/31?
Yes. The Yakuza groups are what you would call "umbrella organizations." Much like the major Russian syndicates. They have any number of sub-groups below them. Not exactly like a crew within a Mafia family but similar. For instance, out of the thousands of people who belong to the Yamaguchi Gumi clan, only about 100 are actually formal members.
What would the reasoning be for their being so few formal members compared to the thousands of associates? Are the formal members of Yamaguchi considered "gods" within the Yakuza?
Mikhailov is the top leader, but the group has several others immediately below him. And further down the organization you have those who essentially head their own organizations but do so under the name and authority of the Solntsevskaya syndicate.
Theoretically, would their makeup be like a Mafia family, but the "crews" of the Bratva being larger/more autonomous?
That's a good way to put it. Especially now as the drug business in Colombia has become more fractured and you have various smaller groups that are engaged in different parts of the industry. The Mexicans are now at where the Colombians were 20 years ago. You have a few major groups jockying for position.
One thing I've always wondered about cartels is that it seems that many cartels have a few different leaders/bosses/lords, and these leaders have their own drug networks beneath them. So what's keeping these individual lords consolidated into a single cartel, and not having them all broken into seperate cartels?
The Yakuza has induction ceremonies that make formal members, much like the Mafia. The Russian Vors are the Russian equivalent of "made men" in the Italian Mafia.

I usually don't refer to movies to explain my point but these are all good recreations of the various initiation ceremonies.

An American LCN initiation ceremony from an episode of The Sopranos -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRKb6ekg0Dk

A Japanese Yakuza initiation ceremony from the film American Yakuza -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5klXi7ybTtU

I tried to find a clip of it but couldn't locate the Vor initiation scene in the film Eastern Promises. One former law enforcement officer told me it's surprsingly accurate. It's a good movie anyway, so I would recommend it and you will get a good idea of what a Vor ceremony is like. Here are a couple photos from the scene -
hoberman.jpg
easternpromises_468x614.jpg
Not sure if I asked and you answered this already, but does the Camorra and 'Ndrangheta have defined ranks like the Mafia?
Both the 'Ndrangheta and Camorra, like the Cosa Nostra, have the uomini d’onore (men of honor), which seperates those who have been formally initiated from those who haven't. The picciotti d’onore of the Camorra are similar to the soldati in the Cosa Nostra - members of the lowest rank or soldiers. The quintino in the 'Ndrangheta are sub-bosses who could be compared to the caporegime in the Cosa Nostra. And the capobastone in the 'Ndrangheta is like the capomafia (boss) in the Cosa Nostra. In the Camorra there is a somewhat informal divide between the "higher" Camorra (those that are involved in more sophisticated operations, legitimate buisness, etc.) and those in the "lower) Camorra (those that are involved in things like drugs, theft, etc.) The 'Ndrangheta is more horizontally organized, rather than vertically, like the Cosa Nostra. Clans are almost solely on blood lineage and marriage. The Camorra, as a whole, is even more loosely organized. The Cosa Nostra, as a whole, is more hierarchial. You have an individual clan. Three clans make up a mandamento. The chief boss of a mandamento also sits on the interprovincial comission, which is headed by a capo-provincia. And at the top is the ruling commission itself.
I saw Eastern Promises when it was in theaters, great show. I assume you are talking about the scene where Viggo is sat before several Vor bosses and they study his tattoos, and insult his family before being given the stars.

Question about that movie: is the organization that Viggo joins a strict representation of a Vor outfit? Some of the descriptions I've seen of the movie say that the movie "examine the culture of the Russian Mafia."

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 12th, 2009, 3:10 pm

Lee23Claire wrote:So, within the Mafia do you think they ever refer to people who hold specific ranks, or is it they just know who's up and who's down, if that makes sense.

So, in the typical Sicilian clan it pretty much is a boss, his aide, and then soldiers in varying degrees of power? Why do you think Sicilian clans are relatively small compared to the Five Families? Would it just be because of how they were setup in 1929/31?
The main distinction in the Sicilian Mafia is between those who are "Men of Honor" and those who are not. The way you described it, after the fact, is a good way to put it. In New York, you had variuos smaller groups that existed in the early part of the 20th century before combining to form five large families. They never really needed to do this in Sicily. The clans are based around their hometowns, most being bonded by blood, marriage, or close associates. But clans also work together as one much more so than the LCN families do in the U.S.
What would the reasoning be for their being so few formal members compared to the thousands of associates? Are the formal members of Yamaguchi considered "gods" within the Yakuza?
They are certainly afforded a high level of respect, though I wouldn't say they are considered "gods." It's basically the same reason why a Mafia family has a limited amount of made members and many more associates. All the various sub-groups underneath the umbrella of the Yamaguchi-Gumi are not really the same as Mafia crews. They are semi-independent except for the fact that they act under the authority of the Yamaguchi and pay a percentage to use the name.
Theoretically, would their makeup be like a Mafia family, but the "crews" of the Bratva being larger/more autonomous?
I suppose in a general sense, as the Solntsevskaya syndicate is one of the larger, more vertically structured groups. But, like I said before, it would be more accurate to compare it to a Yakuza clan. You have the Solntsevskaya group at the top, with a limited amount of members, underneath which you have various sub-groups who are independent in many respects.
One thing I've always wondered about cartels is that it seems that many cartels have a few different leaders/bosses/lords, and these leaders have their own drug networks beneath them. So what's keeping these individual lords consolidated into a single cartel, and not having them all broken into seperate cartels?
Because they need each other to maintain overall power. For instance, in the Medellin cartel, Escobar was simply one of several leaders, though certainly the most notorious. He mainly oversaw the production and smuggling part of the cartel. The Ochoa family was responsible for bribes to politicians and police. I guess one way to compare it is having various vice presidents in a corporation.
I saw Eastern Promises when it was in theaters, great show. I assume you are talking about the scene where Viggo is sat before several Vor bosses and they study his tattoos, and insult his family before being given the stars.
Yes, that is the scene I'm referring to.
Question about that movie: is the organization that Viggo joins a strict representation of a Vor outfit? Some of the descriptions I've seen of the movie say that the movie "examine the culture of the Russian Mafia."
Yeah, the group that he infiltrates are Vors. The Vor have become, in many respects, synonymous with the Russian Mafia as a whole, though not all of those involved in Russian organized crime are Vors. In fact, most are not.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 13th, 2009, 7:44 am

thewestside wrote:They are certainly afforded a high level of respect, though I wouldn't say they are considered "gods." It's basically the same reason why a Mafia family has a limited amount of made members and many more associates. All the various sub-groups underneath the umbrella of the Yamaguchi-Gumi are not really the same as Mafia crews. They are semi-independent except for the fact that they act under the authority of the Yamaguchi and pay a percentage to use the name.
This may be an odd question, but what's to stop the thousands of non-formal members of the Yamaguchi from saying, "Fuck you," and going to war with the 100 or so formal members?
Yeah, the group that he infiltrates are Vors. The Vor have become, in many respects, synonymous with the Russian Mafia as a whole, though not all of those involved in Russian organized crime are Vors. In fact, most are not.
Do vors generally stick to groups that are solely made up of vors, or are they spread out amongst the various Russian mafia groups? Would a vor be granted any extra measure of respect or influence in a group that doesn't follow the vor code, like the Mikhailov's syndicate? What's Mikhailov's current status, anyhow?

The one thing I always find myself doing in whatever I'm doing is trying to learn everything I can about something. For instance, in crime movies I always sit and think about the entire crime organization displayed in the movie, even if it shows just a few members. So, to indulge my nagging curiosity, based on your knowledge, what would you say the structure of the vor group in Eastern Promises would be like? I'd imagine Semyon is the absolute boss, Kirill is the second-in-command or a highly-ranked lieutenant, and Nikolai is a lieutenant below him after he gets his stars. How big would you guess Semyon's group is? Am I on the right track with my thoughts? Also, what was the role/rank of the guy with the white mustache who did the hit with his retarded nephew, or didn't the movie ever really say?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 14th, 2009, 2:46 am

Lee23Claire wrote:This may be an odd question, but what's to stop the thousands of non-formal members of the Yamaguchi from saying, "fu-- you," and going to war with the 100 or so formal members?
The various sub-groups underneath the Yamaguchi "umbrella" are not connected with each other. At least not for the most part. They are semi-independent. If they break away, they are alone. Just a small independent group, many not much more than street gangs. But being officially allied with the Yamaguchi gives them added clout and respect.
Do vors generally stick to groups that are solely made up of vors, or are they spread out amongst the various Russian mafia groups? Would a vor be granted any extra measure of respect or influence in a group that doesn't follow the vor code, like the Mikhailov's syndicate? What's Mikhailov's current status, anyhow?
Vors are highly respected by both other Vors, as well as non-Vors alike. Some groups are exclusively Vor and others have Vors among their ranks. For instance, Vyacheslav Ivankov is a Vor but he is allied with the Solntsevskaya.

Mikhailov was put on trial back in the late 1990's after being in custody for a couple years but was subsquently acquitted. He has since been free and living in Russia.
The one thing I always find myself doing in whatever I'm doing is trying to learn everything I can about something. For instance, in crime movies I always sit and think about the entire crime organization displayed in the movie, even if it shows just a few members. So, to indulge my nagging curiosity, based on your knowledge, what would you say the structure of the vor group in Eastern Promises would be like? I'd imagine Semyon is the absolute boss, Kirill is the second-in-command or a highly-ranked lieutenant, and Nikolai is a lieutenant below him after he gets his stars. How big would you guess Semyon's group is? Am I on the right track with my thoughts? Also, what was the role/rank of the guy with the white mustache who did the hit with his retarded nephew, or didn't the movie ever really say?
It's been a while since I saw the movie. From what I remember, it appeared to be a Russian diaspora group in Great Britain. An organization like that would generally have autonomy there in it's own territory but still be allied and maintain links to one of the major syndicates based in Moscow. The main business of the group appeared to be prostitution, which the Russians are big in in that country. But they will involve themselves where money is to be made. The tattoos alone show they were Vor. But being a diaspora group, it didn't appear to be as hierarchally structured as the more traditional Vor groups. It was more of a Russian OC cell tied to other cells. Obviously the father was the boss and his son was the second in command. It wasn't clear if the other guy (with the mustache) was part of their group or simply an associate. A group like that might be relatively small in and of itself. Maybe less than 10 people total. But their associates, through networks of other Russian mobsters, would be substantially greater.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 14th, 2009, 10:36 am

The main business of the group appeared to be prostitution, which the Russians are big in in that country.
How big?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 14th, 2009, 11:00 am

CheGuevara wrote:How big?
Big enough to where the only other group that rivals them in that respect are the Albanians.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 14th, 2009, 11:26 am

thewestside wrote:
CheGuevara wrote:How big?
Big enough to where the only other group that rivals them in that respect are the Albanians.


The Albanians rival the Russians in prostitution in Britain? The Albanians control 75% of the country's brothels. The Russians come far behind the Albanians in Britain when coming to prostitution.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 14th, 2009, 11:28 am

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/FDP/times170704.htm

Albanian gangsters have established a grip on Britain's sex trade by using extreme violence.

Vice squad officers estimate that Albanians now control more than 75 per cent of the country's brothels and their operations in London's Soho alone are worth more than £15 million a year.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by DutchGangster69 » February 16th, 2009, 8:59 pm

Eastern Promises...Great Movie

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 16th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Notice how thewestside got proven DEAD FCUKING WRONG here. Does that stop his never ending downsizing of the Albanians? No.

Keep telling us how Russians match the Albanians in prostitution in Britain when Albanians control more then 75% of it.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by Lee23Claire » February 18th, 2009, 9:13 pm

thewestside wrote:The various sub-groups underneath the Yamaguchi "umbrella" are not connected with each other. At least not for the most part. They are semi-independent. If they break away, they are alone. Just a small independent group, many not much more than street gangs. But being officially allied with the Yamaguchi gives them added clout and respect.
I assume the Yamaguchi "power" that everyone fears/respects comes from their political connections and financial power?
Vors are highly respected by both other Vors, as well as non-Vors alike. Some groups are exclusively Vor and others have Vors among their ranks. For instance, Vyacheslav Ivankov is a Vor but he is allied with the Solntsevskaya.
It's kinda weird how that is compared to the Italians when their groups are almost exclusively made-up of "made men."

Was Ivankov under the authority of Solntsevskaya when he was in the States?
Mikhailov was put on trial back in the late 1990's after being in custody for a couple years but was subsquently acquitted. He has since been free and living in Russia.
So it's safe to assume that he's still one of the most powerful criminals in the world? Is he the ultimate authority/top boss in Solntsevskaya, or does he share power?
It's been a while since I saw the movie. From what I remember, it appeared to be a Russian diaspora group in Great Britain. An organization like that would generally have autonomy there in it's own territory but still be allied and maintain links to one of the major syndicates based in Moscow. The main business of the group appeared to be prostitution, which the Russians are big in in that country. But they will involve themselves where money is to be made. The tattoos alone show they were Vor. But being a diaspora group, it didn't appear to be as hierarchally structured as the more traditional Vor groups. It was more of a Russian OC cell tied to other cells. Obviously the father was the boss and his son was the second in command. It wasn't clear if the other guy (with the mustache) was part of their group or simply an associate. A group like that might be relatively small in and of itself. Maybe less than 10 people total. But their associates, through networks of other Russian mobsters, would be substantially greater.
Diaspora in that they were forced out of Russia?

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 19th, 2009, 12:04 am

Lee23Claire wrote:I assume the Yamaguchi "power" that everyone fears/respects comes from their political connections and financial power?
Yes. It's sort of the underwold version of a name brand.
Was Ivankov under the authority of Solntsevskaya when he was in the States?
Not directly. He has long been allied with the syndicate but is not officially a part of it.
So it's safe to assume that he's still one of the most powerful criminals in the world? Is he the ultimate authority/top boss in Solntsevskaya, or does he share power?
He is the top guy in the syndicate but it has several leaders.
Diaspora in that they were forced out of Russia?
No. Diaspora groups are those who's members have immigrated to other countries and live there permanently, as opposed to simply being sent there to operate. In other words, a guy like Ivankov wasn't a diaspora gangster. He came (some have said he was sent) to take control of Russian OC operations in Brooklyn. The homegrown Russian guys who showed up at his door offering tribute were diaspora gangsters.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 19th, 2009, 9:57 am

Exactly you can't say shit btich. You just got nailed in the head with proof, Keep spreading lies like the Russians can match the Albanians in prostitution in Britain. Fcuking moron. This should be clear evidence you don't know shit of Albanian OC.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 19th, 2009, 4:07 pm

CheGuevara wrote:Exactly you can't say shit btich. You just got nailed in the head with proof, Keep spreading lies like the Russians can match the Albanians in prostitution in Britain. Fcuking moron. This should be clear evidence you don't know shit of Albanian OC.
viewtopic.php?f=91&t=43092

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 19th, 2009, 4:39 pm

EXACTLY. THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING LIKE THAT. Prooooooooooof! That thewestside doesn't know shit of the Albanian mafia.

He just said the Russian mafia can match the Albanians in prostitution in Britain. Little did the so called self claimed expert know that the Albanians control MORE then 75% of the brothels in the entire country. Again, clear and downright evidence that thewestside doesn't know 20% what he needs to of the albanian mafia to open his mouth.

EXPOSED BTICH!

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 19th, 2009, 4:48 pm

thewestside said: The main business of the group appeared to be prostitution, which the Russians are big in in that country.
CheGuevara said: How big?
thewestside said: Big enough to where the only other group that rivals them in that respect are the Albanians.
Albanian gangsters have established a grip on Britain's sex trade by using extreme violence. Vice squad officers estimate that Albanians now control more than 75 per cent of the country's brothels

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/FDP/times170704.htm


But according to thewestside, "Albanian rival the Russians in Britain when coming to prostitution"

Is this clear evidence of ignorance? This is what I have to deal with when talking to him. This is why he cannot accept the fact that the Albanians come before the Russians and Italians in Europe because he is ignorant and will not admit he is wrong! Even if the most official of evidence says he is! I flat out said, "I was wrong" to Azure when he stamped me in the head with laid out evidence of the Italians in Canada. Admit you were wrong NOW.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 19th, 2009, 4:52 pm

I'll just let that up there. Of course, thewestside will not respond to it because this is what he does when he is wrong. He just lets it go quietly and hopes I won't make big scene about it. Well fcuk that! I am tired of being the bigger man when I am debtaing a man who is twice my age. Its time I made a scene about his BS. Fcuk you thewestside, you ignorant cokcsucker....

Image

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 20th, 2009, 1:46 am

Johnny on the Rudaj Organization
"they moved in on 4 italian mafia families in ny"

"they amounted to the size of a 6th family''

"this guy has been gunning down MADE members since the early 1990's read his wikipedia or news reports"

"come on people be real, the rudaj CREW amounted to a 6th FAMILY"

"he was at john gottis funeral, he took his table over at raos"

"he pushed out 3 other families from certain gambling areas"

"only 6 members of the rudaj gang were convicted leaving what like 100 other albanian mobsters free"

"the raos restueraunt thing was on the front page of the newspaper here, my friend holds it in his room, and it says taking over."

Johnny on Russian organized crime (Notice the contradiction)
"The Russians are everywhere. Miami, New York, California, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago."

"the russians are nothing"

Johnny on blacks vs. the Mafia
"blacks pretty much did take over italians in the 70's comepletly"

Johnny on the size of Albanian organized crime
"we have the highest gangsters per capita in the world"

"out of 500 000 albanians i know for a fact that 5000 are full time real gangsters"

Johnny contradicts himself (again)
"I'll tell you westside why I think the Albanian mafia is the strongest force in organised crime, and 50 years down the road will be the strongest criminal force in modern history."

"I never came on here saying THE ALBANIAN MAFIA IS THE ABSOLUTE MOST POWERFUL IN THE WORLD."

Johnny on Italian organized crime
"the italians are nothing anymore"

A good example of Johnny's thought process (with bogus numbers)
"2: If the Balkan route is worth $400,000,000,000/yearly and the Albanians control 80% of it. Wouldnt that make just the Albanian mafias heroin operations more wealthy than every Italian or Russian organisation put together?"

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 20th, 2009, 9:19 am

You can't even admit you're wrong. All you can do is go back to my posts back when I was under JohnnyRed. What a clown. Admit you were wrong about the Russians in Britain.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 21st, 2009, 5:47 pm

thewestside said: The main business of the group appeared to be prostitution, which the Russians are big in in that country.
CheGuevara said: How big?
thewestside said: Big enough to where the only other group that rivals them in that respect are the Albanians.
Albanian gangsters have established a grip on Britain's sex trade by using extreme violence. Vice squad officers estimate that Albanians now control more than 75 per cent of the country's brothels

http://www.mfa.gov.yu/FDP/times170704.htm


But according to thewestside, "Albanian rival the Russians in Britain when coming to prostitution"

Is this clear evidence of ignorance? This is what I have to deal with when talking to him. This is why he cannot accept the fact that the Albanians come before the Russians and Italians in Europe because he is ignorant and will not admit he is wrong! Even if the most official of evidence says he is! I flat out said, "I was wrong" to Azure when he stamped me in the head with laid out evidence of the Italians in Canada. Admit you were wrong NOW.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 21st, 2009, 5:47 pm

Admit you are wrong you piece of shit if you want any respect or face on this forum.


This is the type of ignorance I have been trying to educate for the time I spent on this forum.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by VostokSila » February 22nd, 2009, 5:41 am

Admit you are wrong you piece of shit if you want any respect or face on this forum.


This is the type of ignorance I have been trying to educate for the time I spent on this forum.
You little arrogant shit... lol how can u even allow yourself the nerve to talk like you do?? educate???? lol you have the education of grade 7.
You pick sources that say ALBANZ NO.1 IN ZE EUROPE but why?? the sources tell us why they are #1?? NO.
You cant know if they are #1 or not, you have the nerve to pretend and "teach" us here about how they are #1.
What?? you gonna say "fuck you I got source that prove me right!! haha!!" the sources dont mean shit. Why is the whole forum argueing against you then?? if it was only thewestside it would make sense but its not..you are full of shit, now, more even than what Faculiana use to be. Please prove to me that the 15 families are more powerful than Solntsevskaya or Tambov or Izmailov please... you can't. Why? because there is not enough info presented to you to prove this (even though you say other).
What you need is a good beating, obviously you never had one.

I crown Che as king of bullshitters on this forum. You bring this on yourself.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 22nd, 2009, 7:17 pm

First of all you dumbazsssss, I wasen't even talking to you. I was talking to thewestside. I wanted him to admit it. Not you. If you would bother to scroll up and read what the problem in this thread is. You wouldn't be talking out of your ass right now.


Second, again and again and again and again and again I have to explain it to you. The 15 families are not an organization like the La Cosa Nostra is. The 15 families are an organizaton like the Gambino Crime Family is. Or like the Medellin Cartel or the Caslesi Clan. Go find me one organization that is Russian or Italian that matches them. They make $2bn just on heroin as of 2000. So go do the comparison.


THIRDLY, I DON'T CARE IF YOU PEOPLE ARGUE WITH ME! I WILL NEVER TAKE THE WORDS OF POSTERS BEFORE OFFICIAL SOURCES. EVER! IT IS COMPLETE IDIOCITY TO DO SO. YOU DON'T KNOW HALF OF WHAT ORGANIZED CRIME IS IN WESTERN EUROPE LIKE THE BELGIAN POLICE DO. YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT ORGANIZED CRIME LIKE THE UNITED STATES DEPERTMENT OF JUSTICE DOES! YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT!


I don't need you people to agree. I have official documents that agree. You don't got shit.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by thewestside » February 22nd, 2009, 10:40 pm

Vostok, quit wasting your time with this guy. He's a 17 year old Albanian organized crime fanboy. Nothing more. He's simply trying to bait me into another discussion like I said he would. And now, with you, he is trying to say that no Italian or Russian group can match the "15 Albanian families." First, relatively little has been written in the public sector about these 15 families. And even Johnny, with his obsessive compulsive attitude about Albanian organized crime, doesn't know enough about them to make a statement that no Italian or Russian group can match them. But of course that's never stopped him before. As usual, he's just going on pure assumption that is driven by an agenda. And don't buy his nonsense about his so called sources. As I said in other threads, two of Johnny's sources don't really say what he claims they do.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by VostokSila » February 23rd, 2009, 8:24 am

Second, again and again and again and again and again I have to explain it to you. The 15 families are not an organization like the La Cosa Nostra is. The 15 families are an organizaton like the Gambino Crime Family is. Or like the Medellin Cartel or the Caslesi Clan. Go find me one organization that is Russian or Italian that matches them. They make $2bn just on heroin as of 2000. So go do the comparison
Same is the Solntsevskaya and the Tambovskaya and Izmailovskaya you idiot... you run out of excuses, you cannot say anything that is why you just chose to disagree with me when I say solntsevksaya are 1 group... and not many. And it is your arrogance that allows you to make these claims with out reading anything to back up your words (Solntsevskaya being many groups).

lol I can take another example.. Mogilevich's organization.. or Bout's organization... dont tell me they are 1000 different groups lol.
THIRDLY, I DON'T CARE IF YOU PEOPLE ARGUE WITH ME! I WILL NEVER TAKE THE WORDS OF POSTERS BEFORE OFFICIAL SOURCES. EVER! IT IS COMPLETE IDIOCITY TO DO SO. YOU DON'T KNOW HALF OF WHAT ORGANIZED CRIME IS IN WESTERN EUROPE LIKE THE BELGIAN POLICE DO. YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT ORGANIZED CRIME LIKE THE UNITED STATES DEPERTMENT OF JUSTICE DOES! YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT!


I don't need you people to agree. I have official documents that agree. You don't got shit.
Then why do you keep argueing with others about the position of the Albanian mafia?? If you dont give a shit what people say here.

My friend.. complete idiocy tis what you are doing... taking baseless articles that show opinions of either magazines (belgian thing) or the USDOJ report which like thewestside said.. on page 44. It is the opinion of ONE MAN, not the whole USDOJ.

You can believe Albanians are #1 all you want.. I dont care anymore.. obviously common sense and logic is not your best field lol.

From now on.. I will not bother explaining your mistakes to you... I will just say when it is BS, so others will know what is truth and what is not.

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Re: OC Ranks

Unread post by CheGuevara » February 23rd, 2009, 9:17 am

thewestside wrote:Vostok, quit wasting your time with this guy. He's a 17 year old Albanian organized crime fanboy. Nothing more. He's simply trying to bait me into another discussion like I said he would. And now, with you, he is trying to say that no Italian or Russian group can match the "15 Albanian families." First, relatively little has been written in the public sector about these 15 families. And even Johnny, with his obsessive compulsive attitude about Albanian organized crime, doesn't know enough about them to make a statement that no Italian or Russian group can match them. But of course that's never stopped him before. As usual, he's just going on pure assumption that is driven by an agenda. And don't buy his nonsense about his so called sources. As I said in other threads, two of Johnny's sources don't really say what he claims they do.

Admit you were wrong about the Russians in Britain.

And no Italian or Russian group can match the '15 families'. They make $2bn just on heroin as of 2000. If some Italian or Russian group does make as much. Name them. Oh wait, you can't.

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