AZTEC GoDS

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
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AZTEC GoDS

Unread postby Tre » December 5th, 2009, 5:40 am

The chocolate god… Ek-chuah

The domestication of the cacao tree came first with the Olmecs, who settled in cacao-growing areas like Chiapas, Guatemala, and the Yucatan. According to linguistic analysis the word chocolate can be traced back to languages originally spoken by the Olmec. The Olmecs tradition of cultivating cocao (chocolate) became a part of the Mayan culture (600 BC) and later the Aztecs (400 AD), who ingested the cacao along with Psilocybe (enthogenic mushrooms).

In Mayan lore they credit a black man named, ‘Ek-chuah’ as their merchant and deity of ka’kau’ – (chocolate). The black god whose name sounds like a sneeze EK-CHUAH , was often depicted on incense vessels, and according to historians was once a living man, worshipped after his decease.

Ek-chuah has an affinity to the Olmec bird god, and often called the big nose god. The Mayan glyph shows ‘Ek-chuah’ grinding the cacao into a powder and mixing it with water … the result being his hands slicked (covered) in chocolate!

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » December 31st, 2009, 5:23 am

When the Europeans first arrived in the Americas they observed the natives playing a peculiar game with a bouncing ball made of rubber (until the end of the fifteenth century rubber ballgames was unknown in Europe). The Olmecs who were the originators of “rubber ballgames” used latex from the rubber tree and mixed it with juice to make the balls of rubber. These games combined aspects of modern day basketball, soccer, American football, and even rugby. Players would dress in full regalia with elaborate ceremonial costumes, decorative protective masks, and protective bands all over their arms and legs. The protective padding the athletes used was necessary because unlike the inflated ball of today that provides a cushion on impact; these balls of solid rubber could do great damage to you. Players routinely found themselves feeling the brunt force of a ball weighing five to eight pounds, being propelled at speeds of up to 60 miles per hour.

Depending on the region, the ballgame was either played more like soccer whereas the ball would have to go into a ground goal or more like basketball whereas the ball would go through a stone hoop. Both the Mayans and Aztecs believed the ballgame was what their gods played, and so the sport was dedicated to their gods and it stood as a symbolism of wanting to be like them. The later version of this game adopted by the Aztecs was filled with much blood and death! The Captain of the losing team would be beheaded, and his skull used as the core around which a new rubber ball would be made. The losing team was expected to die with honor, begging for your life was unthinkable for an Aztec.

Although the original rules of the game was lost or destroyed, we do know that the game as conceived by the Olmecs was not just about strength and skills. Ceremonial dances, rituals, and religious beliefs regarding creation formulated the rules and traditions of the game. Fasting and abstinence from sexual activity was required of all players before the game and incantations by priests and special prayers were also offered to the ball handler. Some believe the Olmecs designed the layout of the ballcourt and game to symbolically reflect the movement of specific constellations, and planets, in that the Olmecs were avid star gazers, time keepers and even the most insignificant things, had special meaning to them.


The Aztec god of fire and time “ Xiuhtecuhtli “ brings a rubber ball offering to a temple with a quetzal feather!
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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 23rd, 2010, 6:08 am

We’ll everyone knows about the Aztec god of war ‘Huitzilopochtli ‘who’s credited for renaming the Aztecs “Mexica” under who’s name the Mexica conquered other lands, and made the people of those lands build temples to worship him. The god that inspired the Nortenos huelga bird (Aztec Pyramid turned upside down). The god Surenos have built much of their mystique around, whose number is 13 and dominate color is blue.

In Aztec mythology Huitzilopochtli resides in the seventh heaven of 13, which is represented as blue. His main temple on the great Pyramid in Tenochtitlan in which houses his infamous blue bench (throne) of sky blue was called Lihuicatl Xoxouqui (Blue Heaven), and he is often depicted with gold bracelets, blue foot sandals and a “serpent staff” also blue.

One of the few surviving Aztec manuscripts that does not show European influence is ‘The Codex Borbonicus’ which was painted by Aztec priests shortly before or after the Spanish conquest of Mexico. In the ‘Codex Borbonicus’ the black god Huitzilopochtli is featured as 1 of the original 13 gods, many of whom are black. The worship of black gods was a common occurrence in Pre-Columbian art and culture. The Aztecs sometimes favored gods from other cultures and included them as a part of their pantheon/familia.

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Digital image of the god Huitzilopochtli from the Codex Borbonicus

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby youngspade » January 23rd, 2010, 1:19 pm

God is GOD,

AInt no Mexican GOD or ASIAN GOD or BLACK GOD


Hes just GOD, nothing less, nothing more!

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby perongregory » January 25th, 2010, 11:09 pm

good stuff TRE.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » January 28th, 2010, 5:26 pm

I love the way Tre takes some things written to flip it the way he sees fit but I'm by no means an expert on the subject so I'm gracious enough to give your opinion the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » January 29th, 2010, 8:53 pm

If you'd be so gracious Tre, where are you getting your resources from for these alleged Black Olmecs?

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COUNTER ARGUMENT

Unread postby mayugastank » January 29th, 2010, 11:02 pm

HERES MY COUNTER TRE. 80% of MExico is indigenious with a a half mixture of european and native aztecs, olmecs,mayans,mexica...at the time of the Conquistadors arrival their were between -9 million to 13 million Native peoples in the lands from now southern Mexico to the very most southern tip of chiapas. Disease,war, famine and dysentery wiped out approximately 93% of the population in the next 60 years. Over 11 million native mexicans would perish.The vast majority of mexican people are mestizo. 7 % are a 100% indian . 11% or more are 100% caucasian. only 2% of its population are others a mixture of asiatic, black and arabic tradesmen who migrated to mexico for business, leisure, marriage or whatever. To point out African populations of 2% and claim they have had an impact on Mexican culture is looney. Their are places were blacks make up 40-50% of the populations but these are isolated spots. their are approximately 95 million Mexicans and only about 1.9 millon have some type of mixed either african,asian or arabic bloodlines. I dont get the post ? If you want to point to a black culture in latin america point to belize,brazil,nicaragua,columbia,all of whom have(except brazil) substantially less populations then Mexico but whom have more Afro-Latinos.



Admixture Graph, Bonilla et al. 2005Mexico is ethnically diverse. The second article of the Mexican Constitution defines the country to be a pluricultural nation - Indigenous, Mestizo, European - originally founded upon the indigenous peoples.

The Mexican census has not tracked race since the early 20th century, and at the time, responses were typically subject to the opinion of the census taker or self-reporting. Numerous anthropological studies have been produced, based largely on extrapolations from early censuses, language use, self-reporting and blood-typing. Thus most reports until recently have been at best, educated opinions. This is changing in recent years with the emergence of the genomic revolution.

In 2004, the Mexican government founded the National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN) which launched the Mexican Genome Diversity Project. In May 2009, the Institute issued a report on a major genomic study of the Mexican population. Among the findings, it was reported that of the 80% of the population that is mestizo, the proportions of European and indigenous ancestry are approximately even, with the indigenous component slightly, but significantly predominating overall. The proportions of admixture were found to vary geographically from north to south, as previous pre-genomic studies had surmised, with the European contribution predominating in the north, and the indigenous component greater in the central and southern regions. One of the significant conclusions of the study as reported was that even while it is composed of diverse ancestral genetic groups, the Mexican population is genetically distinctive among the world's populations.[55]

[edit] Indigenous peoples
Largest indigenous peoples

Mayas in Chiapas
Group Number
Nahua peoples (Nawatlaka) 2,445,969
Maya (Maaya) 1,475,575
Zapotec (Binizaa) 777,253
Mixtec (Ñuu sávi) 726,601
Otomí (Hñähñü) 646,875
Totonac (Tachihuiin) 411,266
Source: CDI (2000) [2]
Main article: Indigenous peoples of Mexico
The constitution not only recognizes the 62 indigenous peoples living in Mexican territory but also grants them autonomy and protects their culture and languages. This protection and autonomy is extended to those Amerindian ethnic groups which have migrated from the United States—like the Cherokees and Kickapoos—and Guatemala during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Municipalities in which indigenous peoples are located can keep their normative traditional systems in relation to the election of their municipal authorities. This system is known as Usos y Costumbres, roughly translated as "customs and traditions".

According to official statistics—as reported by the National Commission for the Development of Indigenous Peoples or CDI—Amerindians make up between 16%-30%[56][57] of the country's population, even though only a little more than half of them (7.1% of total population) still speak an indigenous language and a tenth (1.2% of total population) do not speak Spanish.[58] Official statistics of the CDI[59] report that the states with the greatest percentage of Amerindian population or individuals of Amerindian origin are Yucatán (59%), Oaxaca (48%), Quintana Roo (39%), Chiapas (28%), Campeche (27%), Hidalgo (24%), Puebla (19%), Guerrero (17%), San Luis Potosí (15%) and Veracruz (15%). Oaxaca is the state with the greatest number of distinct indigenous peoples and languages in the country.

[edit] Europeans
Main article: White Mexican

White Mexicans are among the three main groups in the country.Apart from the recognition of indigenous peoples, neither the INEGI nor the CONAPO classify the population according to race. International organizations usually report that between 9%[60] and 17%[61] of the country's population is European, Caucasian or White. Most of these are the descendants of the Spanish colonists called criollo. However, many other immigrants arrived during the Second Mexican Empire (mostly French) and during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, mostly from Italy, the United Kingdom, Ireland and Germany.[12][62] White Americans, Croats, Armenians, Greeks, Germans, Polish, Romanians, Russians and Ashkenazi Jews,[62] along with many Spanish refugees fleeing the Spanish Civil War also immigrated.[63] The European Jewish immigrants joined the Sephardic community that lived in Mexico since colonial times, though many lived as Crypto-Jews, mostly in the northern states of Nuevo León and Tamaulipas.[64] Some communities of European immigrants have remained isolated from the rest of the population since their arrival, amongst them the Dutch Mennonites of Chihuahua and Durango,[65] the Venetos of Chipilo, Puebla, which have retained their original languages.[66]

[edit] Africans
Main article: Afro-Mexican

Afro-MexicanaAfro-Mexican's are an ethnic group in Mexico that are a mixture of (Indigenous peoples, African peoples, and European ancestry). They are concentrated in the coastal areas of Veracruz, Tabasco, Oaxaca and Guerrero. Some migrated to these locations after the abolition of slavery in 1829, while many were absorbed into the general population. Some Afro-Mexican retain elements of their African culture along side their Mexican heritage.[67] The majority of Mexico's Africans came from West Africa; Ghana, Côte d'Ivoire, Senegal, Gambia, Nigeria, the Congo, and Angola. The first came as free skilled laborers and craftsmen. After the Pope's prohibition against enslaving Indigenous peoples the Africans became slaves. A small percent came from African-American fugitive slaves that escaped through the underground railroad to Mexico and the Caribbean Islands[68]. During colonial times African peoples lived, worked, and mixed into the general population. Based upon genetic test conducted by scientist, African DNA admixture among the people of Mexico has been determined. In general, Northern and Central Mexicans had 0.01% to 18.10% African ancestry. However in locations in and around Tamiahua and coastal areas yielded 21.7% to 40.5% African Ancestry.[69]. Despite slavery and the Spanish Caste system their have been a number of notable Afro-Mexicans: Vicente Ramon Guerrero, and Juan Álvarez; were both Presidents of Mexico and preceded Americas first president of African descent.[citation needed]

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » January 30th, 2010, 2:32 am

No offense to the level headed Black folks on this thread but there are some Afrocentrism people claiming that the Olmecs were Black, therefore, their ancestors constituted the first civilization in the Americas and directly influenced the Native Americans custom/ways thousands of years ago. there are some that believe or propagate that Blacks were the first Native Americans, while others say or in addition that the Aztec and Mayan temples look like the Egyptian pyramids therefore they must have been related, there's no such evidence. admixture of African ancestral blood of Mexicans away from the eastern coast is very little to none. I see all the evidence pointing towards the Olmecs being of Native American blood and not of African ancestry, and I will stand by this until proven otherwise.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 30th, 2010, 4:01 am

~J~ wrote:If you'd be so gracious Tre, where are you getting your resources from for these alleged Black Olmecs?


~J~ wrote:No offense to the level headed Black folks on this thread but there are some Afrocentrism people claiming that the Olmecs were Black, therefore, their ancestors constituted the first civilization in the Americas and directly influenced the Native Americans custom/ways thousands of years ago. there are some that believe or propagate that Blacks were the first Native Americans, while others say or in addition that the Aztec and Mayan temples look like the Egyptian pyramids therefore they must have been related, there's no such evidence. admixture of African ancestral blood of Mexicans away from the eastern coast is very little to none. I see all the evidence pointing towards the Olmecs being of Native American blood and not of African ancestry, and I will stand by this until proven otherwise.


I’m simply going on ~J~ what the Olmecs present to us as their point of origin, unless you want to make the argument that Nubians aren’t black.
viewtopic.php?f=236&t=37773

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 30th, 2010, 4:19 am

mayugastank wrote:HERES MY COUNTER TRE. 80% of MExico is indigenious with a a half mixture of european and native aztecs, olmecs,mayans,mexica...at the time of the Conquistadors arrival their were between -9 million to 13 million Native peoples in the lands from now southern Mexico to the very most southern tip of chiapas. Disease,war, famine and dysentery wiped out approximately 93% of the population in the next 60 years. Over 11 million native mexicans would perish.The vast majority of mexican people are mestizo. 7 % are a 100% indian . 11% or more are 100% caucasian. only 2% of its population are others a mixture of asiatic, black and arabic tradesmen who migrated to mexico for business, leisure, marriage or whatever. To point out African populations of 2% and claim they have had an impact on Mexican culture is looney.


Your contrived notion 'Mayuga' that African populations had no impact on Mexican culture is what’s looney to me, especially when you consider it was the African-Olmecs that set the foundation for the other civilizations you mentioned Maya and Aztecs. The Olmecs dwelled in South America until the 4th century, when some Chinese explorers under Hsu Shen came looking for more land. They came to the shores of America (California) in 459 A.D. where they bumped into the Olmecs. ... They lived and interbred amongst one another producing what became known as your Native American or Indian population.

mayugastank wrote: To point out African populations of 2% and claim they have had an impact on Mexican culture is looney.

Seriously 'Mayuga' how you can make statements like this when Mexico credits a black man 'Huitzilopochtli’ for naming them??
(Mexico comes from the name Mexica).

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby whiskeyjack » January 30th, 2010, 8:22 am

Hey Tre can you ask how the chinese explorer Hsu Shen made it to california, when the trade winds blow towards china from america above the equater? Did they travel north through the Alaskan coast, or travel south from Australian?

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Azure9920 » January 30th, 2010, 12:10 pm

Oh gee, never mind the fact that most respected archeologists and anthropologists vehemently disagree with the claim that the Olmecs(or any other Pre-Colombian civilization) were descendants of African migrants, it goes against the stream of available biological and genetic evidence as well.

The Role of Geography in Human Adaptation
. Coop, G, et all.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1000500

Let's see what Jared Diamond has to say about the spread of disease in MesoAmerica and how it relates to the ethnic background of the Olmec:

http://facstaff.unca.edu/cnicolay/cluster/Arrow-Disease.pdf

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 30th, 2010, 1:59 pm

whiskeyjack wrote:Hey Tre can you ask how the chinese explorer Hsu Shen made it to california, when the trade winds blow towards china from america above the equater? Did they travel north through the Alaskan coast, or travel south from Australian?

According to Hsu-Shen’s narrative ‘Jack’ he sailed north to Japan and the Kamchatka Peninsula, east to the Aleutians and present-day Alaska, and then south along the Pacific coast (a region he called Fu-Sang). Evidently Fu-Shang encompassed the entire Pacific Coast from Alaska to California.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » January 30th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Scholars such as Ivan Van Sertima (They Came Before Columbus) assert that Egyptians and Nubians came to Mexico in the Pre-Columbian period (c.1200 BC).The Olmec civilization may be descended from or had contact with Africans. He cites as evidence the African facial features of the Olmec heads at La Venta, Tabasco and San Lorenzo. Van Sertima’s research is controversial and not widely accepted by mainstream historians. Those in the field would probably agree that Blacks who accompanied the conquistadors were the first persons of African descent in Mexico. One of the earliest was Juan Garrído who accompanied Hernán Cortes (c.1519) and participated in the fall of Tenochtitlan. Afro Mexicans in the 16th century fell into three categories: slaves; unarmed auxiliaries (servants and slaves) and armed auxiliaries such as Garrído who obtained their freedom. He was also credited with introducing wheat into the Americas. According to Matthew Restall (Black Conquistadors), “it is primarily after this date [1510] that armed black servants and slaves begin to play significant military roles in Spanish conquest enterprises.”

I pasted the first paragraph above, you might want to take another look at what its saying or rather not saying, but even if you were to give it the benefit of the doubt, why would the Egyptians and Nubians take a trip no the unknown, for fun? and how in the world would they have made that boat trip to the Americas alive?

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » January 30th, 2010, 4:52 pm

~J~ wrote:No offense to the level headed Black folks on this thread but there are some Afrocentrism people claiming that the Olmecs were Black, therefore, their ancestors constituted the first civilization in the Americas and directly influenced the Native Americans custom/ways thousands of years ago. there are some that believe or propagate that Blacks were the first Native Americans, while others say or in addition that the Aztec and Mayan temples look like the Egyptian pyramids therefore they must have been related, there's no such evidence. admixture of African ancestral blood of Mexicans away from the eastern coast is very little to none. I see all the evidence pointing towards the Olmecs being of Native American blood and not of African ancestry, and I will stand by this until proven otherwise.

Correction, the first known civilization in the Americas would be from Peru.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 31st, 2010, 12:31 am

~J~ wrote:No offense to the level headed Black folks on this thread but there are some Afrocentrism people claiming that the Olmecs were Black, therefore, their ancestors constituted the first civilization in the Americas and directly influenced the Native Americans custom/ways thousands of years ago. there are some that believe or propagate that Blacks were the first Native Americans, while others say or in addition that the Aztec and Mayan temples look like the Egyptian pyramids therefore they must have been related, there's no such evidence. admixture of African ancestral blood of Mexicans away from the eastern coast is very little to none. I see all the evidence pointing towards the Olmecs being of Native American blood and not of African ancestry, and I will stand by this until proven otherwise.

My info regarding Indians being a combination of Olmec (Blacks) and Asians mixing...
I provided a link if you would like to read it further in depth (itywsiwwbabp)
http://www.brownpride.us/forum/olmecs-m ... t8947.html

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » January 31st, 2010, 12:38 am

~J~ wrote:Scholars such as Ivan Van Sertima (They Came Before Columbus) assert that Egyptians and Nubians came to Mexico in the Pre-Columbian period (c.1200 BC).The Olmec civilization may be descended from or had contact with Africans. He cites as evidence the African facial features of the Olmec heads at La Venta, Tabasco and San Lorenzo. Van Sertima’s research is controversial and not widely accepted by mainstream historians. Those in the field would probably agree that Blacks who accompanied the conquistadors were the first persons of African descent in Mexico. One of the earliest was Juan Garrído who accompanied Hernán Cortes (c.1519) and participated in the fall of Tenochtitlan. Afro Mexicans in the 16th century fell into three categories: slaves; unarmed auxiliaries (servants and slaves) and armed auxiliaries such as Garrído who obtained their freedom. He was also credited with introducing wheat into the Americas. According to Matthew Restall (Black Conquistadors), “it is primarily after this date [1510] that armed black servants and slaves begin to play significant military roles in Spanish conquest enterprises.”

I pasted the first paragraph above, you might want to take another look at what its saying or rather not saying, but even if you were to give it the benefit of the doubt, why would the Egyptians and Nubians take a trip no the unknown, for fun? and how in the world would they have made that boat trip to the Americas alive?


Did you read the rest of the thread?

Image

There was a stone (Stela No.5) found at the heart of Olmec civilization^^^^
In the lower left-hand corner of this stone, the Olmecs show us where they originated from. You can see wave curls at the bottom indicating an ocean and above this area several pyramids symmetrically spread out… all the exact same height and width. If you look even closer it’s not the pyramids of Egypt that’s being pictured here. In the front of these pyramids are chapels, fronted by distinctive pylon-structures which are uniquely Nubian.

Nubian style Pyramids (Meroe) are smaller and of steeper angle. Their general construction consisted of steep walls and chapels facing East.

Image

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby whiskeyjack » January 31st, 2010, 12:48 pm

Tre wrote:
whiskeyjack wrote:Hey Tre can you ask how the chinese explorer Hsu Shen made it to california, when the trade winds blow towards china from america above the equater? Did they travel north through the Alaskan coast, or travel south from Australian?

According to Hsu-Shen’s narrative ‘Jack’ he sailed north to Japan and the Kamchatka Peninsula, east to the Aleutians and present-day Alaska, and then south along the Pacific coast (a region he called Fu-Sang). Evidently Fu-Shang encompassed the entire Pacific Coast from Alaska to California.


Im not trying to refute the olmec or chinese sailing to america thing, but i have one question...

My question is what kind of ships did Hsu Shen ride the current to America in? And what type of wood were they made of?
I looked up Fu-Shang and havent found anything about him, just another chinese dude who supposedly made it to america in the 1400's... Could you provide more information on him please

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » February 1st, 2010, 12:25 am

whiskeyjack wrote:
Tre wrote:
whiskeyjack wrote:Hey Tre can you ask how the chinese explorer Hsu Shen made it to california, when the trade winds blow towards china from america above the equater? Did they travel north through the Alaskan coast, or travel south from Australian?

According to Hsu-Shen’s narrative ‘Jack’ he sailed north to Japan and the Kamchatka Peninsula, east to the Aleutians and present-day Alaska, and then south along the Pacific coast (a region he called Fu-Sang). Evidently Fu-Shang encompassed the entire Pacific Coast from Alaska to California.


Im not trying to refute the olmec or chinese sailing to america thing, but i have one question...

My question is what kind of ships did Hsu Shen ride the current to America in? And what type of wood were they made of?
I looked up Fu-Shang and havent found anything about him, just another chinese dude who supposedly made it to america in the 1400's... Could you provide more information on him please

No problem Jack...I provided a link for you with some good background info on him.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/pi/pi10.htm

As far as the type of ship, the Chinese used sea-going 'junks' at that time, commonly built of softwoods with interior compartments that slowed flooding in case of holing, The bottom usually flat with no keel, so that the boat relied on a leeboard to help balance and improve its ability in sailing upwind.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » February 1st, 2010, 2:36 am

Tre, you do realize mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 with this out of Africa theory like some theorists without degrees in anthropology or linguists would like others to be, it's all speculation. if you could link me with a citation supporting this claim by all means be my guess.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » February 1st, 2010, 2:40 am

~J~ wrote:Tre, you do realize mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 with this out of Africa theory like some theorists without degrees in anthropology or linguists would like others to be, it's all speculation. if you could link me with a citation supporting this claim by all means be my guess.

This was meant to be (believe).

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » February 1st, 2010, 10:50 am

~J~ wrote:Tre, you do realize mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 with this out of Africa theory like some theorists without degrees in anthropology or linguists would like others to believe, it's all speculation. if you could link me with a citation supporting this claim by all means be my guess.

Mainstream Mesoamerican scholars don’t support it, but neither do they deny it. The reason is the content of education and textbooks has been dominated by Europeans over the past decade. Sometimes this point of view eclipses actual reality. I find it strange that despite everyone agreeing Africa was the birthplace of humanity, making the direct link between the Olmecs and Africa (as displayed in Stela 5) is considered off limits and controversial??

Since we are on the subject of the Olmecs, I am curious about your own viewpoint J. Are you denying that black Olmecs existed, or are you just denying that they came out of Africa?

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Azure9920 » February 1st, 2010, 11:55 am

Tre wrote:
~J~ wrote:Tre, you do realize mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 with this out of Africa theory like some theorists without degrees in anthropology or linguists would like others to believe, it's all speculation. if you could link me with a citation supporting this claim by all means be my guess.

Mainstream Mesoamerican scholars don’t support it, but neither do they deny it. The reason is the content of education and textbooks has been dominated by Europeans over the past decade. Sometimes this point of view eclipses actual reality. I find it strange that despite everyone agreeing Africa was the birthplace of humanity, making the direct link between the Olmecs and Africa (as displayed in Stela 5) is considered off limits and controversial??

Since we are on the subject of the Olmecs, I am curious about your own viewpoint J. Are you denying that black Olmecs existed, or are you just denying that they came out of Africa?


The absence of proof - no matter what excuses you use - is not proof.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby ~J~ » February 1st, 2010, 4:04 pm

There's a lot of Afrocentrics making assumptions similar to this, these claims have little or rather no substance and have been easily countered. African-Americans and Africans alike have a rich African history to be proud of, but it's sad and down right misleading to make claims on the achievements of Native Americans.

Here's some food for thought. these are some of the best pieces I've found on Olmec/Native Americans on Youtube, enjoy.

Part 1


Part 2


Part 3


Part 4

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Azure9920 » February 1st, 2010, 8:17 pm

~J~ wrote:There's a lot of Afrocentrics making assumptions similar to this, these claims have little or rather no substance and have been easily countered. African-Americans and Africans alike have a rich African history to be proud of, but it's sad and down right misleading to make claims on the achievements of Native Americans.

Here's some food for thought. these are some of the best pieces I've found on Olmec/Native Americans on Youtube, enjoy.

Part 1


Part 2


Part 3


Part 4


Wonderful post J! As you can see, the claims that the Olmecs were of African stock is just another attempt by Afrocentrists to create a positive for Africans, as they've accomplished next to nothing otherwise. They seem to be bringing up the Olmecs more and more often lately - no doubt due to the popularity of the Mayans in the mainstream - and are looking to misinform much like they've tried in the past with the ancient Egyptians.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » February 2nd, 2010, 4:19 am

~J~ wrote:Tre, you do realize mainstream Mesoamerican scholars do not support linking Izapa Stela 5 with this out of Africa theory like some theorists without degrees in anthropology or linguists would like others to be, it's all speculation. if you could link me with a citation supporting this claim by all means be my guess.

As far as citations all you have to do is link back to the Guyanese historian, linguist and anthropologist you referenced earlier….
The African-Olmec linking is supported by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima.
SOURCES:
They Came Before Columbus, by Ivan Van Sertima
Early America Revisited, by Ivan Van Sertima


His credentials speak for itself.
Ivan Van Sertima was born in Guyana, South America. He was educated at the School of Oriental and African Studies (London University) and the Rutgers Graduate School and holds degrees in African Studies and Anthropology. From 1957-1959 he served as a Press and Broadcasting Officer in the Guyana Information Services. During the decade of the 1960s he broadcast weekly from Britain to Africa and the Caribbean.
http://www.journalofafricancivilizations.com/page/9048

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » February 2nd, 2010, 4:24 am

~J~ wrote:Scholars such as Ivan Van Sertima (They Came Before Columbus) assert that Egyptians and Nubians came to Mexico in the Pre-Columbian period (c.1200 BC).The Olmec civilization may be descended from or had contact with Africans. He cites as evidence the African facial features of the Olmec heads at La Venta, Tabasco and San Lorenzo. Van Sertima’s research is controversial and not widely accepted by mainstream historians. Those in the field would probably agree that Blacks who accompanied the conquistadors were the first persons of African descent in Mexico. One of the earliest was Juan Garrído who accompanied Hernán Cortes (c.1519) and participated in the fall of Tenochtitlan. Afro Mexicans in the 16th century fell into three categories: slaves; unarmed auxiliaries (servants and slaves) and armed auxiliaries such as Garrído who obtained their freedom. He was also credited with introducing wheat into the Americas. According to Matthew Restall (Black Conquistadors), “it is primarily after this date [1510] that armed black servants and slaves begin to play significant military roles in Spanish conquest enterprises.”

I pasted the first paragraph above, you might want to take another look at what its saying or rather not saying, but even if you were to give it the benefit of the doubt, why would the Egyptians and Nubians take a trip no the unknown, for fun? and how in the world would they have made that boat trip to the Americas alive?

There have been several important experiments with African boats and the Atlantic currents. Starting in 1952, Dr. Alain Bombard sailed from Casablanca to Barbados in an African raft. In 1955, Dr. Hannes Lindemann sailed for fifty-two days from the Cape Verde Islands to the South American coast. Both journeys were made alone and the men arrived in good health. In 1969, Thor Heyerdahl conducted two experiments, one with the Ra I and the other with the Ra II. The Ra I and the Ra II were ships built identical to an earlier model African ship. The ships were built out of papyrus and were constructed the way they would have been during the Pre-Columbian era. The Ra I was built by the Buduma people first. The Ra I started at Safi in North Africa and sailed to Barbados. The Ra I fell short of making the journey across the Atlantic. The Ra II was built by a native American tribe, the Aymara, this ship made it from Africa to America successfully. These experiments prove that if these simple vessels could negotiate the Atlantic Ocean using one of the two currents, then some of Africa's more sophisticated ships could have made the trip.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Tre » February 2nd, 2010, 4:34 am

~J~ wrote:I pasted the first paragraph above, you might want to take another look at what its saying or rather not saying, but even if you were to give it the benefit of the doubt, why would the Egyptians and Nubians take a trip no the unknown, for fun? and how in the world would they have made that boat trip to the Americas alive?

It has been documented that two different African civilizations made the voyage to the Americas. The first one was the 25th Dynasty of Egypt (751-656 B.C.E.). Any voyages made during this time would have resulted accidentally. The Nubians quest for iron ore deposits took them up and down the African coast. They might have journeyed into the Atlantic after iron ore deposits or a storm could have driven them into the Atlantic. Once in the currents it would have delivered them to the Americas. This would put them in the Olmec heartlands at the time of the founding of the Olmec civilization. The second voyage was made by the Mandiga people of the Mali Empire in 1310 and 1311. In 1324 Mansa Kankan Musa stopped in Cairo and reported that his predecessor, Prince Abubakari II, launched two expeditions to explore the limits of the Atlantic Ocean. The first expedition he sent out 200 ships of men, and 200 ships of trade material, food, water. One ship returned and told of the current that seemed like a river in the middle of the ocean. The captain watched the ships get sucked away, and then returned with the news. Prince Abubakari II, after listening to the captain, decided he would lead the next voyage himself. He took 1,000 ships of men and 1,000 ships loaded with supplies.

Some of these Africans must have made it to the Americas, because there were sightings that indicated their presence in the New World. Columbus himself reported that the American Indians of Hispaniola had told him that "there had come to Hispaniola people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they call quanin, of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were gold, six of silver and eight of copper." These samples were sent back to Spain on a mail boat, and the proportion was found to be identical to what was being forged in African Guinea. On his third voyage he journeyed to the Cape Verde Islands. There he found that "canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise." A personal friend of Columbus, named Las Casa, who traveled with him later left the following message:

"Certain principal inhabitants of the island of Santiago came to see them and they say that to the southwest of the Island of Huego [Fogo, or Fuego] which is one of the Cape Verdes distance 12 leagues from this, may be seen an island, and that the King Don Juan [Dom Joao II of Portugal] was greatly inclined to send to make discoveries to the southwest, and that canoes had been found which start from the coast of Guinea and navigate to the west with merchandise."

This travel must have been deliberate if these vessels were loaded "with merchandise." Although much later, this would coincide with the stories of voyages out of Africa. Later on Columbus's third voyage he noted the presence of Africans in Panama. Even Ferdinand Columbus said that his father told him he had seen Africans north of Honduras.

There were other sightings in the Americas that were reported. One sighting was by Peter Martyr who reported that Vasco Nunez de Balboa in September 1513 saw two black men in Panama. Native Americans reported to him that they were at war with a large settlement of these black men. It was believed these black men were ship wrecked. Another sighting was by Lopez de Gomara who described the people as identical to Africans seen in Guinea. The next sighting by Labbe' Brasseur de Bourbourg reported two indigenous peoples in Panama, the Mandinga (black skin) and the Tule (red skin). Also Fray Gregoria Garcia reports on blacks sighted in Cartagena, Columbia. Michael Coe even reported that Alonzo Ponce spoke of a boatload of "Moors" who landed off Campeche and terrorized the natives.

"Alphonse de Quatrefages, author of The Human Species, speaks of distinct Black tribes among the native Americans- Black communities like the Jamassi of Florida, the Charruas of Brazil, and a people in St. Vincent."

There had been many sightings of Africans in the Americas. Over the years these have been written out of history as insignificant or incorrect. However the proof cannot be altered.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Azure9920 » February 2nd, 2010, 12:53 pm

"Gabriel Haslip-Viera; Bernard Ortiz de Montellano; Warren Barbour, "Robbing Native American Cultures: Van Sertima's Afrocentricity and the Olmecs"

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/current/vansertima.pdf

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby perongregory » February 2nd, 2010, 7:16 pm

personally, I'm not sure about the olmecs being black, Even though i do know Africans had made it to the new world before columbus (there was a PBS documentary about it -I'll try to see if I can find the name). What i am most interested in, is reclaiming all of Africa's history and setting straight the lies of the Arabs and Europeans regarding African history and culture.

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Re: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<>AZTEC G(())DS

Unread postby Azure9920 » February 2nd, 2010, 7:50 pm

perongregory wrote:What i am most interested in, is reclaiming all of Africa's history and setting straight the lies of the Arabs and Europeans regarding African history and culture.


Such as? I'm not trying to bait an argument, I'm genuinely interested.


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