PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
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PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » October 11th, 2004, 8:32 pm

Is is either free will or predestination or is it possible that both are operating at the same time?

How can you reconcile both ?

What is the true teaching in the BIBLE ?

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by gtrip » November 9th, 2004, 10:53 pm

predestination as defined by purtain/quaker era or predestination that based on my own or one's own will that i will seek god ? I believe that for me personally i was predestined to seek god in my own life in order to live how god would want me to live

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » November 10th, 2004, 10:06 am

Think hard Homies, because if some are predestined to seek GOD, while others are predestined to be lost, then what is the purpose of the Gospel of Salvation ?

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Cold Bear » November 12th, 2004, 8:39 am

I heard a theory in a book written by two Masons who did reseach on the origins of Christianity and Christ. It said that Jesus planned his life based on the stars and the movements of them (astrology). This theory challenges the basic assumptions of Jesus' relationship with God, and forces you to think of God's will differently. While Jesus may have been predestined, he was making choices all along the way.

Predestination and free will can operate at the same time. You are told that your destiny is something, and you choose to follow it or choose to break out of it. Stereotypes and laws are a way of telling people that they are predestined. These people are predestined to be poor, these people are predestined to succeed, these people are predestined to own the promised land. Assumptions about destiny are not necessarily true if there are revolutions of thought that say the opposite.

I don't think predestination carries the same weight it did for older civilizations. Nobody is promised heaven or hell. Every time you choose to do something, good or bad, you exercise free will. The choices you make tell your fate.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Anonymous20 » November 21st, 2004, 12:43 am

Its all about making your own choices and decision. If predestination was even to be considered a real thing, then that means terror, crime, tragedy, murder, death, disease, are all unavoidable realities, but we can save lives, change people and cure sickness.

Was it realy that three year old babies time to go when a bullet crashed through her bedroom wall and landed in her cranium? Was it predestined for that coward to pull that trigger and end the life a a child that so many people loved and supported? I think not.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by fistfullofboomstick » November 21st, 2004, 12:49 am

alonso everything is possible, if u are religeous u might find religious reasons that the baby was taken from this world , i am not religious, and i definately like the idea of free will, but maybe everything is predetermined and we are all puppets, i guess we will never kno

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » November 21st, 2004, 10:24 am

I was re-ferring more towards the Judeo-Christian beleif of pre-destined ones to be saved, while others are on the highway to hell.

"Pre-destined to partake of the Glory" or those that will never see the light.

Not so much as to individual acts, for we all know that every little action carries a reaction.

But in the end we have Great Bible Personages like Abraham, Moses, King David, John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul and Peter all whom are said to have been Pre-Destined and selected per say, while others like the son of perdition and Judas Iscariot are said to be destined to fall.

Therefore I ask, what is the real teaching in the "BIBLE" about it ?
Last edited by Lonewolf on November 21st, 2004, 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by fistfullofboomstick » November 21st, 2004, 10:59 am

o i get u man, maybe i should read the post first lol

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Cold Bear » November 22nd, 2004, 12:26 pm

"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. " (John 4:22) KJV

Both Jews and Christians are of the seed of Abraham. Islam also was birthed by Abraham (Ibrahim). Christians consider themselves superior to Jews in some cases, and Jews to Muslims etc., but they all stem from the same root. If there is one thing these siblings can agree upon, it is that they have the same father.
To be saved you first have to forgo separation with your fellow man.

But about predestination in the bible:
Romans 8:28-30 - "We know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

"God knows all things, even in advance"

"People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
-- Einstein

The bible itself teaches predestination. But that is not to say you don't have active involvement with your own salvation. Also the ones that have been lost are not lost forever.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » November 23rd, 2004, 11:51 am

Cold Bear wrote: "God knows all things, even in advance"

The bible itself teaches predestination. But that is not to say you don't have active involvement with your own salvation.
Oso, I'm amazed with you Homie, this goes precicely to my question.

How do you reconcile already being pre-destined for either a stairway or a floor trap, because if its already "written" then what's the use of trying ?

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Cold Bear » November 24th, 2004, 9:57 am

Wolf, Check this out. This is probably the best summary you can find on this topic.


THIRTEEN POINTS ON PREDESTINATION AND SALVATION

1. God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events.

2. However, this does not mean fatalistic necessity, for the destruction of human liberty.

3. Consequently, man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil.

4. God desires that all men obtain eternal happiness.

5. Christ has died for all men, though not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption.

6. God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect.

7. God predestined no one positively to hell, much less sin.

8. Consequently, just as no one is saved against His will, so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness.

9. God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins.

10. However, He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners, or pass over those who are not predestined.

11. As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church.

12. Without special revelation, no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect.

13. With our faith in Christ and perseverance in obedience (2 Pet 1:10) we can have what is called a "moral certitude" of our salvation.

Check out the source of this material:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Kemosave » November 30th, 2004, 1:24 pm

alonso wrote:Its all about making your own choices and decision. If predestination was even to be considered a real thing, then that means terror, crime, tragedy, murder, death, disease, are all unavoidable realities, but we can save lives, change people and cure sickness.

Was it realy that three year old babies time to go when a bullet crashed through her bedroom wall and landed in her cranium? Was it predestined for that coward to pull that trigger and end the life a a child that so many people loved and supported? I think not.
Right on Alonso. However, let us not forget that the very universe we inhabit has since its inception (scientifically we can show from almost to origin and astronomically we can see to when light first separated from darkness) shows design of an amazing superior intellect and is on a predestined course. Our universe is finite, has a beginning, will have an end, is on a predetermined course, and it's entire existence from everything that exists in the universe to the course it has taken through time being so finely tuned to permit life on earth the analogies and math I'd have to bring would boggle your mind.

You can easily synch up the Genesis account with a current scientific understanding and go farther in understanding this transcendent Creator and the plan "he" has for "his" creation. Now within that framework freewill operates. That is the freewill that allows people to make choices for good or for evil. However, God is not constrained by the ten dimensions (six curled around the four) of our universe and can operate within and without to effect change accordingly and has in fact done so. Which brings us to the "why does God allow evil to even exist argument." Anyone want to start a thread on that?
Last edited by Kemosave on December 3rd, 2004, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » November 30th, 2004, 1:30 pm

HERE, HERE.

One request from you kIMO, and that is, for US that have only a sketchy High School ED, can we keep it to words WE can find in what is left of OUR brain cells and not the Encyclopedia Brittanica ?

No offense, just trying to keep it open "for all" to understand.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Kemosave » December 1st, 2004, 3:28 pm

I may be gradually losing my ability to do that lonewolf. lol.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Cold Bear » December 1st, 2004, 4:16 pm

Kemo what do you mean Ten Dimensions six curled around four???
If time is the Fourth Dimension what are the other six?
Are you getting at string theory?

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by balla909 » December 2nd, 2004, 10:42 am

I myself believe in predestination. If you want to be saved it has already been predestined. This is a very hard subject to talk about, I will do some research and post up more info.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Kemosave » December 2nd, 2004, 2:55 pm

Cold Bear wrote:Kemo what do you mean Ten Dimensions six curled around four???
If time is the Fourth Dimension what are the other six?
Are you getting at string theory?
Astronomers, Astrophysicists, Physicists, and Mathmaticians agree there were ten original dimensions required during the first brief moment of the formation of the universe. Then six space dimensions curled around three space and one time dimension as the event expanded. Those six space dimensions are dormant at this time. This is pretty basic stuff actually. One author that puts it very plainly would be Hugh Ross, phd from University of Toronto in his book "Creator and the Cosmos." Grab a copy and read it if you are interested.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Kemosave » December 4th, 2004, 12:38 pm

To simplify it for you lonewolf, all of our thinking about God is analogical. The Bible, for example, relates its information about God to the world and this reality that we understand. See all time is present to God. He created time and is not bound to it. We are unable to break out of space time but space time is elementary to God. Based on the intelligence required to design our universe, using math, we can show he is trillions and trillions times smarter than us. So there really is no "predestination" in the sense of events in sequential order because God sees the end before the beginning and knows what will happen in our "future" before they begin to happen in our time.

And take all this in light that at the level of physics no one knows how the "laws of physics" are imbedded into our reality. We simply do not know what is going on at the "base" of material existence. Ideas about the determinacy/indeterminacy of events by reasoning from quantum physics and probability theory must be considered in this light. There could be causal factors that we are not aware of. But we soldier on with the information that we do have ;p. Peace out.
Last edited by Kemosave on December 9th, 2004, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » December 4th, 2004, 5:38 pm

I see what you're saying kIMO, so many things beyond our capabilty of understanding with our physical realm that may or may not be all that physical as we perceive it to be.
However that would be too easy pickings and surely if all was to be already foreseen then where would free will be?
I have the understanding of some scripture to be like the following;
If you're given a life to live and with a free will to choose to either follow on your Creators path to PREDESTINED SALVATION, or to be an unbeliever in His master plan to be partakers with Him and therefore be PREDESTINED FOR DEATH.
We choose to do or not, to believe or not, to follow or not, to sin or not.
He puts out a path, and He lights the road, and He puts out a welcome sign and He opens the door to His house, and for those that take Him up on it "HE HAS PREDESTINED THAT HE WILL BE THEIR GOD AND THEY WILL BE FOREVER WITH HIM",
And to those that turn down His offer, "HE HAS PREDESTINED THAT THEY WILL BE FOREVER SEPARATED FROM HIS GLORY".
So the predestination is not one of ALL IS SET IN STONE in regards as to what every act of man will be, but one of a PREDESTINED PLAN that will lead to salvation for ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE, remember that HE GAVE HIS LIFE ON THE CROSS SO THAT ALL WOULD BELIEVE AND NONE SHOULD BE LOST.
A constant play of acts and events that will ultimately have a PREDESTINED ENDING to the story per say, but not like if HUMANITY was just a GAME PIECE.

I'm not too good in putting together this type of feels, hope I made some sense as to what idea I'm trying to relate.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Kemosave » December 8th, 2004, 12:52 pm

Yes it makes sense.

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Lonewolf » December 12th, 2004, 10:08 pm

Cold Bear wrote:Wolf, Check this out. This is probably the best summary you can find on this topic.


THIRTEEN POINTS ON PREDESTINATION AND SALVATION

1. God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events.

2. However, this does not mean fatalistic necessity, for the destruction of human liberty.

3. Consequently, man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil.

4. God desires that all men obtain eternal happiness.

5. Christ has died for all men, though not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption.

6. God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect.

7. God predestined no one positively to hell, much less sin.

8. Consequently, just as no one is saved against His will, so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness.

9. God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins.

10. However, He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners, or pass over those who are not predestined.

11. As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church.

12. Without special revelation, no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect.

13. With our faith in Christ and perseverance in obedience (2 Pet 1:10) we can have what is called a "moral certitude" of our salvation.

Check out the source of this material:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num21.htm
This is from non-CALVINISTS right?

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Re: PREDESTINATION ~VS~ FREE WILL

Unread post by Cold Bear » December 13th, 2004, 7:57 am

Yeah, specifically Catholics.

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