Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Religion is probably the biggest divider in world history, but for those that believe in God it is central to our existence. Share your views.
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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 8:58 am

Confession

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Are all of our sins—past, present, and future—forgiven once and for all when we become Christians? Not according to the Bible or the early Church Fathers. Scripture nowhere states that our future sins are forgiven; instead, it teaches us to pray, "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors" (Matt. 6:12).

The means by which God forgives sins after baptism is confession: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Minor or venial sins can be confessed directly to God, but for grave or mortal sins, which crush the spiritual life out of the soul, God has instituted a different means for obtaining forgiveness—the sacrament known popularly as confession, penance, or reconciliation.

This sacrament is rooted in the mission God gave to Christ in his capacity as the Son of man on earth to go and forgive sins (cf. Matt. 9:6). Thus, the crowds who witnessed this new power "glorified God, who had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8; note the plural "men"). After his resurrection, Jesus passed on his mission to forgive sins to his ministers, telling them, "As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. . . . Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21–23).

Since it is not possible to confess all of our many daily faults, we know that sacramental reconciliation is required only for grave or mortal sins—but it is required, or Christ would not have commanded it.

Over time, the forms in which the sacrament has been administered have changed. In the early Church, publicly known sins (such as apostasy) were often confessed openly in church, though private confession to a priest was always an option for privately committed sins. Still, confession was not just something done in silence to God alone, but something done "in church," as theDidache (A.D. 70) indicates.

Penances also tended to be performed before rather than after absolution, and they were much more strict than those of today (ten years’ penance for abortion, for example, was common in the early Church).

But the basics of the sacrament have always been there, as the following quotations reveal. Of special significance is their recognition that confession and absolution must be received by a sinner before receiving Holy Communion, for "[w]hoever . . . eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27).



The Didache



"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).



The Letter of Barnabas



"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).



Ignatius of Antioch



"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).



Irenaeus



"[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22 [A.D. 189]).



Tertullian



"[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness" (Repentance 10:1 [A.D. 203]).



Hippolytus



"[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . . Pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles . . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command" (Apostolic Tradition 3 [A.D. 215]).



Origen



"[A final method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, ‘I said, "To the Lord I will accuse myself of my iniquity"’" (Homilies on Leviticus 2:4 [A.D. 248]).



Cyprian of Carthage



"The apostle [Paul] likewise bears witness and says: ‘ . . . Whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest . . . they do violence to [the Lord’s] body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him" (The Lapsed 15:1–3 (A.D. 251]).

"Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who . . . confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. . . . I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord" (ibid., 28).

"[S]inners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of Communion. [But now some] with their time [of penance] still unfulfilled . . . they are admitted to Communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the Eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]" (Letters 9:2 [A.D. 253]).

"And do not think, dearest brother, that either the courage of the brethren will be lessened, or that martyrdoms will fail for this cause, that penance is relaxed to the lapsed, and that the hope of peace [i.e., absolution] is offered to the penitent. . . . For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given" (ibid., 51[55]:20).

"But I wonder that some are so obstinate as to think that repentance is not to be granted to the lapsed, or to suppose that pardon is to be denied to the penitent, when it is written, ‘Remember whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works’ [Rev. 2:5], which certainly is said to him who evidently has fallen, and whom the Lord exhorts to rise up again by his deeds [of penance], because it is written, ‘Alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 12:9]" (ibid., 51[55]:22).



Aphraahat the Persian Sage



"You [priests], then, who are disciples of our illustrious physician [Christ], you ought not deny a curative to those in need of healing. And if anyone uncovers his wound before you, give him the remedy of repentance. And he that is ashamed to make known his weakness, encourage him so that he will not hide it from you. And when he has revealed it to you, do not make it public, lest because of it the innocent might be reckoned as guilty by our enemies and by those who hate us" (Treatises 7:3 [A.D. 340]).



Basil the Great



"It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt. 3:6], but in Acts [19:18] they confessed to the apostles" (Rules Briefly Treated 288 [A.D. 374]).



John Chrysostom



"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).



Ambrose of Milan



"For those to whom [the right of binding and loosing] has been given, it is plain that either both are allowed, or it is clear that neither is allowed. Both are allowed to the Church, neither is allowed to heresy. For this right has been granted to priests only" (Penance 1:1 [A.D. 388]).



Jerome



"If the serpent, the devil, bites someone secretly, he infects that person with the venom of sin. And if the one who has been bitten keeps silence and does not do penance, and does not want to confess his wound . . . then his brother and his master, who have the word [of absolution] that will cure him, cannot very well assist him" (Commentary on Ecclesiastes 10:11 [A.D. 388]).



Augustine



"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16 [A.D. 395]).

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 9:00 am

Must we confess before receiving Communion because God cannot be in the presence of sin?

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Full Question
It is my understanding that we should be cleansed of our sins before we receive the Eucharist because God cannot be in the presence of sin. What happens to the presence of Christ in the Eucharist if someone receives but has not repented or has not gone to confession? Does Christ cease to be present? If he remains present, what happens?


Answer

Who says God cannot be in the presence of sin? One need only read Scripture to find Jesus in the presence of sin. Perhaps you’re confusing this notion with "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27).

Receiving Christ in the Eucharist forgives venial sins. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, "As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins" (CCC 1394).

However, the reception of the Eucharist does not forgive mortal sins, so a person who is conscious of mortal sin must go to confession before receiving communion. The Code of Canon Law states,


A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to . . . receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is no opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible. (CIC 916)

When a person conscious of mortal sin receives the Eucharist without prior forgiveness he commits another mortal sin and only compounds his desperate situation. Paul tells us, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord" (1 Cor. 11:27). The Church calls this sacrilege:


Sacrilege consists in profaning or treating unworthily the sacraments and other liturgical actions, as well as persons, things, or places consecrated to God. Sacrilege is a grave sin especially when committed against the Eucharist, for in this sacrament the true Body of Christ is made substantially present for us. (CCC 2120)




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Answered by: Jim Blackburn








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Is it wrong to receive Communion before committing a mortal sin?
Should I receive if I have an unconfessed mortal sin on my conscience?
Can someone who has committed a mortal sin receive Communion if he makes a perfect act of contrition?
Is a Catholic required to go to confession at least once a year if he has not committed a mortal sin?
Does the Church still teach you have to go to confession before receiving Communion?

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » January 17th, 2015, 10:50 am

Thats understood Silent: but the Authority and power was not given to bishops and priests,it was given to eyewitnesses of Jesus apostles and prophets,these scriptures were directed toward them there is the argument of Apostlic succession,but there isnt any proof of it.They the "Apostles" waited in Jerusulem for the Holy Spirit from God to forgive sin and loose and bind,the power and authority they had was never passed on and there is Nobody on earth who was eyewitnesses to have seen Jesus Silent,there inspired word that is God breathed is only left for us. Thats were our belief differs the apostles were Jewish Christians they were not Catholic.The scriptures you used pertain to the apostles,I have no faith in men who claim to have authority that they do not have. we all fall short of God's glory silent there is NO MAN ON EARTH THAT IS GOD OR JESUS SUCCESSOR THATS LUDICROUS TO THINK OR BELIEVE MUCH LOVE AND RESPECT,I WILL ASK ONE QUESTION IF THEY DO POSSES THIS POWER AND AU THORITY HOW COME THEY CANT PERFORM MIRCALES? A SUCCESSOR TO A KING IS A KING,A SUCCESSOR TO A PRESIDENT IS A PRESIDENT,HOW COME A SUCCESSOR TO AN APOSTLE ISNT AN APOSTLE?These are just honest questions.L&R. BJ

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » January 17th, 2015, 11:25 am

My bad Mircles? We just have different faiths,I question Catholicism,and many different faiths,Faith becomes belief when your certain of the truth Silent,I question my own faith at times to keep me honest with God knowing we need Him Jesus stated we can do nothing without Him He is the vine we are the branches,To me a SUCCESSOR is truly given a title that person possessed.is what I'm actually saying is all brother thats my opinion is all.It is all educational and I'm by no means challenging you to defend your faith.It has opened my eyes totally our studys and it continues to keep my eyes and ears open.We have to be hearers of the word as well as doers brother with L&R BJ

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 11:30 am

claim he's Peter's successor?

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Full Question
Your pope doesn't perform miracles the way Peter did, does he? So how can you claim he's Peter's successor?


Answer

We don't claim he succeeds to the power to perform miracles. That power wasn't passed on to Peter's successors because there wasn't any need for it to be passed on. Only those powers absolutely necessary for the preservation of the Church have been given to the popes.


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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 11:32 am

Miracles and Evangelism







Tim Staples

July 18, 2014 | 17 comments


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Some of the greatest gifts God has given to the Church for evangelism are the gifts of miracles. As a Pentecostal before I became Catholic, I always believed God still performs miracles, but I never saw anything close to what Catholics too often take for granted in both the number and kind of miracles God pours out upon his One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in every generation. Everything from the raising of the dead, to restorative miracles of the body and more have been experienced in the Church for 2,000 years fulfilling our Lord’s prophetic words of Mark 16:17-20:

“These signs shall follow those who believe”… And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it.

And yet, these miracles are too often the best kept secret in Catholicism. I am convinced that untold millions of souls would come to Christ in his Church if we as Catholics would simply inform them of these incredible gifts.

What is a Miracle?

The glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church gives an excellent definition of what constitutes a miracle:

A sign or wonder, such as a healing or the control of nature, which can only be attributed to divine power. The miracles of Jesus were messianic signs of the presence of God.

The key here is the notion that a true miracle “can only be attributed to divine power;” it cannot be explained by the action of created beings. Thus, when the Church investigates whether or not a particular phenomenon is miraculous all natural possibilities must first be eliminated. In fact, in its discernment process the Church will often use non-believing experts in pertinent areas, whether they are doctors when discerning a physical healing, or various scientists when examining some other material phenomena as we will see below, in order to avoid any possible bias in favor of demonstrating a miracle. If anything, the Church would prefer the investigating expert to have a bias against rather than in favor of demonstrating an authentic miracle. The principle involved here is simple. God does not need our help to communicate miracles. He is plenty able to do it all by himself and in a way that will be convincing to any and all who seek the truth honestly.

Why Miracles?

Vatican I, in session 3, The Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, chapter 3, “On Faith,” declared:

Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God’s will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the Holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all.

Moreover, in its accompanying canons, the Council fathers declared infallibly:

(Canon 3) If anyone says that divine revelation cannot be made credible by external signs, and that therefore men and women ought to be moved to faith only by each one’s internal experience or private inspiration: let him be anathema.
(Canon 4) If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in sacred scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema.

It should be noted that God does not overwhelm us when it comes to miracles. God respects our freedom. Indeed, without freedom there is no true love as we understand it. Miracles are aids to those who honestly seek truth, never guns to the head forcing belief. For those who do not want to submit to God and his truth, there will always be ways to explain away miracles, even if these “explanations” range from the weak to the absurd. Jesus’ words in Luke 16:31 come to mind:

“If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”

This is not to dismiss the importance of miracles. Of course not! The Church has rightfully declared them to be “the most certain signs of revelation” and certain proofs of “the divine origin of the Christian religion” as we cited above. But it is a help for keeping things in perspective. Not everyone is going to be convinced because there is more to this thing than just being persuaded intellectually. The will sometimes gets in the way!

Eucharistic Miracles

1. In ca. AD 700, at the Monastery of St. Longinus, in Lanciano Italy, a priest-Monk whose name is unknown to us today was celebrating the Holy Eucharist. He had been struggling with his faith in the Real Presence when our Lord in his infinite mercy would deign to grant to this priest and to the world a miracle that even to this day continues to be visible proof of the truth of the Eucharist. Shortly after the consecration—after the bread and wine he offered had been transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ—the accidents of bread and wine he was then holding in his hands were transformed into real human flesh and real human blood.

Over the centuries there have been multiple occasions where the Church permitted this miracle to be examined, but perhaps the most thorough of these examinations took place in 1970, under the expert scrutiny of Dr. Odoardo Linoli, university professor-at-large in anatomy and pathological histology, and in chemistry and clinical microscopy, head physician of the United Hospitals of Arezzo, and Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, a professor emeritus of normal human anatomy at the University of Siena. The findings of this study were truly amazing:

• The flesh was proven to be the muscular tissue from the myocardium of a human heart.
• The blood tested from both the flesh and coagulated blood was discovered to be AB positive and human in origin.
• The proteins in the coagulated blood were “found to be normally fractionated, with the same percentage ratio as those found in normal fresh blood.” In other words, this blood was not later planted from a cadaver; it came from a living body and maintained properties of fresh blood.
• Inexplicably, though the receptacles containing the miracles were not hermetically sealed, nor did they have any preserving agents that could be detected, the flesh and blood had been preserved for well over 1,200 years, even though they would have been exposed to all sorts of variant temperatures and atmospheric conditions, the smoke of incense, etc.

Even today tens of thousands of regular visitors to Lanciano, Italy, where the miracle is preserved, can view flesh that maintains a pinkish hue with visible blood vessels remaining as a sign of the truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

2. On August 14, 1730, in Siena, Italy, thieves broke into the Church of St. Francis, picked the lock on the tabernacle, and stole the golden ciborium containing hundreds of consecrated hosts. After an intensive search, the sacred hosts were thankfully found having been stuffed into an offering box in a nearby church, St. Mary of Provenzano. The ciborium had obviously been stolen for its monetary value. The hosts were immediately returned in procession to St. Francis Church.

Many people ask why the sacred hosts would not have been consumed at that time. Most likely, they were not consumed because of their soiled condition. After cleaning the hosts as best they could, they were probably left to deteriorate naturally until they could no longer be called bread. They could then be discarded respectfully. At least, that is one theory. But most importantly to our point, the priests of the parish were startled to find that the sacred hosts not only did not deteriorate over time, but they maintained a freshly baked consistency and a pleasant scent. The Franciscans who ministered at St. Francis Catholic Church became convinced in time that they were witnessing a miracle.

Fifty years later, on April 14, 1780, an official investigation was begun into the authenticity of the miracle. After fifty years, the sacred hosts were found to be fresh, as if they had been prepared the day before. The miraculous nature of this phenomenon had become inescapable.

Over the years there have been multiple investigations including a most thorough examination in 1914 by direction of His Holiness, Pope St. Pius X. During this investigation the sacred hosts were examined by a panel including scientists, professors as well as theologians and church leaders. This distinguished panel concluded that there is no natural explanation for the fact that these hosts still exhibited the characteristics of freshly baked unleavened bread without even a hint of deterioration, and so they have endured for over two hundred and eighty years and can been seen today in that same pristine state.

Incorruptibles

1. St. Bernadette Soubirous (b. 1844, d. April 16, 1879, at 35 years of age) is most famous for the Blessed Mother having visited her from heaven in 1858, where our Lady revealed herself as “the Immaculate Conception.” Occurring just four years after Pope Blessed Pius IX had declared this to be a dogma, it was as though the Church had received confirmation from heaven of this truth the Pope had “bound on earth” in accord with the power Christ promised to him in Matthew 16:18-19.
These apparitions provided much more than confirmation of a dogma, however. Below, we will examine two bodily healings from among the scores of approved miracles from the sight of this apparition, but for now we want to examine what is perhaps a lesser known miracle involving St. Bernadette. At least, it is lesser known among people outside of the Church.

On September 22, 1909, thirty years after her death, Bernadette’s body was exhumed as is sometimes the case when the cause of canonization is first begun. When they opened the coffin, two doctors and multiple sisters of the community observed a body that was as perfectly preserved as on the day of her death. Her face had even maintained its natural skin tone. The rosary she was holding in her hands had rusted and the crucifix that had been laid upon her chest was covered with verdigris and yet she was absolutely pristine. All was recorded and she was again placed in the tomb.

Ten years later, her corpse was exhumed once again at the end of the canonization process and found to be just as perfectly preserved. Her body can be viewed today at the Chapel of St. Bernadette in Nevers, France, where 135 years after her death she still looks as though she has just fallen asleep.

2. St. Catherine Laboure (b. 1806, d. Dec. 31, 1876, at 70 years of age) is also well-known among Catholics for being chosen by God to be the recipient of heavenly visits. Hers came from Our Lord himself, St. Vincent de Paul, who was the founder of her Religious Order, her guardian angel, and most famously, our Blessed Mother who gave the Miraculous Medal to the world through St. Catherine in 1830. This great gift to the Church has been the instrument of numerous miracles and blessings over the years.

Fifty-six years after her death, when her beatification was announced by the Vatican, her body was exhumed only to be discovered perfectly intact by the medical and ecclesiastical team assigned to the task. Two fingers on her left hand appeared to be blackened, but upon further investigation the cause was found to be the disintegration of the sleeve of her habit, not from any decay of her skin. Amazingly, her arms and legs were found to be supple and even her bones had not suffered decay. They were still elastic and cartilaginous. Her eyes were still intact, complete with irises still retaining the blue-gray color Catherine was born with. Her hair remained attached to her scalp, her fingernails and toenails were perfectly preserved. Just as St. Bernadette above, the preservation of St. Catherine’s body could not be explained naturally. Not a few men I can think of would love to have their hair remain as perfectly attached to their scalps in life as this great saint’s hair remained in death!

Healings

1. Born Christmas day 1939, in Ribera, Sicily, Gemma Di Giorgi was legally blind. She was born without pupils in her eyes. Doctors declared there was nothing that could be done for her. Yet, at the age of seven, she was taken by her grandmother on the long journey to San Giovanni Rotondo to see Saint Pio of Pietrelcina, better known as Padre Pio. There are differing accounts of the actual process of how the healing took place, but there is no disagreement over the fact that through the intercession of Padre Pio, this little girl received her sight. Fr. Charles Mortimer Carty recounts:

They were both lost in the crowd… attending [Padre Pio’s] Mass, when at the end while the silence was still intense, everyone heard a voice calling: “Gemma, come here!” The grandmother pushed her way to the altar… [Padre Pio] smiled at Gemma and told her that she must make her first Communion. He heard her confession and then stroked her eyes with his hand…

The healing did not take place immediately, but as Fr. Carty explains:

Padre Pio saw them later and said: “May the Madonna bless you, Gemma. Be a good girl!” At this moment the child gave a frantic cry, she could see…

What is perhaps most remarkable about this healing is that from a medical and scientific perspective, Gemma should still be blind. When she was healed, she did not miraculously receive new pupils. Her eyes to this day (and she is still alive) still look like the eyes of a blind woman. Carty goes on to say:

The cure was permanent and complete, although her eyes still had no pupils. She was examined by many doctors who testified to the case and were able to offer no scientific explanation.

2. “The Medical Office of Lourdes” was established in 1882 as an aid for the Church in discerning which alleged miracles at Lourdes would be approved as such by the Church. In 1947, the “National Medical Committee of Lourdes” (in 1954, the name was changed to the International Medical Committee of Lourdes) was established to further scrutinize phenomena presented by the Medical Office as inexplicable. It consists of ca. 30 physicians appointed by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and applies intense scrutiny to each case presented. Of the over 6,000 documented miracles in the archives of the Medical Office, the Church has only approved 67 of them.

It is not that all of the other “miracles” are not truly miracles. Many of them, perhaps thousands, probably are. The Church establishes the highest of standards to ensure only the most certain are presented to the faithful as worthy of pious belief. In order to be approved, the miracles have to be “sudden, unforeseeable, involving no convalescence… total… lasting (at least 4 or 5 years before being taken into consideration)… serious (that is, a threat to life)… organic and not functional…” In fact, the committee considers whether or not previous therapies or means of care may have had an impact on a healing. Only those entirely inexplicable by natural causes can be considered to be miraculous.

I will list two of these miracles here that occurred on successive days—August 20th (Marie Lebranchu) and 21st (Marie Lemarchand) of 1892. Both of these women suffered terribly from severe pulmonary tuberculosis (Koch’s baciallus) and were in the final and terminal stages of the disease. Lebranchu, 35 years-old, was emaciated, weighing less than 60 lbs while Lemarchand, 18 years-old, actually had ulcerous caverns in her face caused by the tuberculosis that were absolutely hideous to behold.

Both women were instantaneously healed upon bathing in the miraculous waters—Marie Lemarchand received brand new pink skin where before there were only holes. She would later marry and give birth to eight children.

Priceless Gifts

When Jesus uttered the famous words, “I and my Father are one” in John 10:30, boldly declaring his divinity, he knew that most would not believe him. After all, this was an incredible claim to make to a 1st century Jewish audience. However, notice our Lord’s response:

If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father (John 10:37-38).

It was as though our Lord was saying, “I know what I am saying seems hard for you to understand—even blasphemous—but the miracles I have performed prove that what I am saying is true.” The Church makes incredible claims as well, claiming divine authority, the power to forgive sins, etc. This seems outrageous to our incredulous age as well. When attempts at giving reasoned explanations for what we believe seem to fall on deaf ears, perhaps our response to the unbelieving multitudes can be similar to our Lord’s. If given the opportunity, perhaps a presentation of just some of the many documented cases of miracles in the Church will lead many to “believe the works” so that they can then “know and understand” the rest.

If you want to learn more reasons for faith in our Lord and in his Holy Catholic Church, click here.


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Tim Staples is Director of Apologetics and Evangelization here at Catholic Answers, but he was not always Catholic. Tim was raised a Southern Baptist. Although he fell away from the faith of his childhood, Tim came back to faith in Christ during his late teen years through the witness of Christian...

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 11:35 am

Apostolic Succession

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The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, "[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it" (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

For the early Fathers, "the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’" (ibid.).

Thus on the basis of experience the Fathers could be "profoundly convinced of the futility of arguing with heretics merely on the basis of Scripture. The skill and success with which they twisted its plain meaning made it impossible to reach any decisive conclusion in that field" (ibid., 41).



Pope Clement I



"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).



Hegesippus



"When I had come to Rome, I [visited] Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And after Anicetus [died], Soter succeeded, and after him Eleutherus. In each succession and in each city there is a continuance of that which is proclaimed by the law, the prophets, and the Lord" (Memoirs, cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 4:22 [A.D. 180]).



Irenaeus



"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 189]).

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:2).

"Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time" (ibid., 3:3:4).

"Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money] in a bank, lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth, so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life. . . . For how stands the case? Suppose there arise a dispute relative to some important question among us, should we not have recourse to the most ancient churches with which the apostles held constant conversation, and learn from them what is certain and clear in regard to the present question?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

"[I]t is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church—those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the infallible charism of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth" (ibid., 4:26:2).

"The true knowledge is the doctrine of the apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the succession of bishops, by which succession the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere" (ibid., 4:33:8).



Tertullian



"[The apostles] founded churches in every city, from which all the other churches, one after another, derived the tradition of the faith, and the seeds of doctrine, and are every day deriving them, that they may become churches. Indeed, it is on this account only that they will be able to deem themselves apostolic, as being the offspring of apostolic churches. Every sort of thing must necessarily revert to its original for its classification. Therefore the churches, although they are so many and so great, comprise but the one primitive Church, [founded] by the apostles, from which they all [spring]. In this way, all are primitive, and all are apostolic, while they are all proved to be one in unity" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 20 [A.D. 200]).

"[W]hat it was which Christ revealed to them [the apostles] can, as I must here likewise prescribe, properly be proved in no other way than by those very churches which the apostles founded in person, by declaring the gospel to them directly themselves . . . If then these things are so, it is in the same degree manifest that all doctrine which agrees with the apostolic churches—those molds and original sources of the faith must be reckoned for truth, as undoubtedly containing that which the churches received from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, [and] Christ from God. Whereas all doctrine must be prejudged as false which savors of contrariety to the truth of the churches and apostles of Christ and God. It remains, then, that we demonstrate whether this doctrine of ours, of which we have now given the rule, has its origin in the tradition of the apostles, and whether all other doctrines do not ipso facto proceed from falsehood" (ibid., 21).

"But if there be any [heresies] which are bold enough to plant [their origin] in the midst of the apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the apostles, because they existed in the time of the apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that [their first] bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the apostles or of apostolic men—a man, moreover, who continued steadfast with the apostles. For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter" (ibid., 32).

"But should they even effect the contrivance [of composing a succession list for themselves], they will not advance a step. For their very doctrine, after comparison with that of the apostles [as contained in other churches], will declare, by its own diversity and contrariety, that it had for its author neither an apostle nor an apostolic man; because, as the apostles would never have taught things which were self-contradictory" (ibid.).

"Then let all the heresies, when challenged to these two tests by our apostolic Church, offer their proof of how they deem themselves to be apostolic. But in truth they neither are so, nor are they able to prove themselves to be what they are not. Nor are they admitted to peaceful relations and communion by such churches as are in any way connected with apostles, inasmuch as they are in no sense themselves apostolic because of their diversity as to the mysteries of the faith" (ibid.).



Cyprian of Carthage



"[T]he Church is one, and as she is one, cannot be both within and without. For if she is with [the heretic] Novatian, she was not with [Pope] Cornelius. But if she was with Cornelius, who succeeded the bishop [of Rome], Fabian, by lawful ordination, and whom, beside the honor of the priesthood the Lord glorified also with martyrdom, Novatian is not in the Church; nor can he be reckoned as a bishop, who, succeeding to no one, and despising the evangelical and apostolic tradition, sprang from himself. For he who has not been ordained in the Church can neither have nor hold to the Church in any way" (Letters 69[75]:3 [A.D. 253]).



Jerome



"Far be it from me to speak adversely of any of these clergy who, in succession from the apostles, confect by their sacred word the Body of Christ and through whose efforts also it is that we are Christians" (Letters 14:8 [A.D. 396]).



Augustine



"[T]here are many other things which most properly can keep me in [the Catholic Church’s] bosom. The unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here. Her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love, and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep [John 21:15–17], up to the present episcopate, keeps me here. And last, the very name Catholic, which, not without reason, belongs to this Church alone, in the face of so many heretics, so much so that, although all heretics want to be called ‘Catholic,’ when a stranger inquires where the Catholic Church meets, none of the heretics would dare to point out his own basilica or house" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 4:5 [A.D. 397]).

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 11:43 am

Hey there Brother Bumperjack! Real quick as I am home with the family for the weekend! We have already covered Apostolic succession in other posts! Re-read those if you need to. All the writings of the first Christians attest to this truth! As far as Miracles go there are numerous ones that occur in the Catholic Church! The gifts that the Apostles had died with them. They only passed on what was necessary to continue the establishment of the Church! God definitely still produces Miracles in the Catholic Church though! We could do a whole post on that subject if you want in the future. Look up Eucharistic Miracles and incorruptables, just to name a few. These happen in the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church only! I don't want to delve to deep into that here but I am willing to do a post on it if you want! I just checked my E-mail and noticed a message from you. I will tell you what, let me address your request in the E-mail tonight when my wife goes to sleep! She gets mad at me when I am on the computer, when I am home from work and that is understandable. I only have a limited amount of time with my family. Anyhow, take care and God bless! Silent!

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » January 17th, 2015, 9:55 pm

Once saved always saved, a tragedy beyond measure.

By Luke Haskell

What is right is wrong, what is up is down, what was vegetables has become candy, what was tradition handed down by the apostles and their disciples to many has become a tradition of man. What is a tradition of man has become Bible alone through individual interpretation. Living a life of faith that “worketh through charity” is distained by many in debate groups in order to prove the manmade doctrine of faith alone. From the beginning of Christianity and at the time the apostles went East and West, the belief and practice of the seven sacraments, purgatory, praying to saints as intercessors in humility, devotion to Mary as our gift from God of his most perfect creation, fear of God as Father, in not loving him enough to fulfill his will, was what was taught and what the martyrs died for in the first 400 years of the faith established by God. The first faith that came out of Constantinople was the same that came out of Rome. For the first 900 years of Christianity the Eastern Church wrote letters confirming Peter as the rock on which Gods church was founded, the one who holds the keys in order to keep unity of faith. They looked to Rome as the final arbiter on disputes of heresy. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

“22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23I in them, and thou in me; THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE: AND THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.” (John 17:22) The oneness of Christ’s church is the testament to the fact that he was sent by the Father. Without this oneness from the beginning, there would be no testament, there would be no book called the New Testament. Without a physical head to establish apostolic succession, there would be no oneness. The church has kept this oneness through divine providence for 2000 years while Kingdoms rise and fall.

Justin (100 – 165 AD) who was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of John the apostle, wrote in his first apology to the emperor of Rome explaining the sacraments and how Satan created paganism to keep humanity from Catholic truth. “For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. “ (Ephesians 6:12) the deception is supernatural; of supernatural intelligence, and can only be overcome through the humility to be open to truth through grace. “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth”. (Ephesians 6:12) “But when the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8) True faith is faith that worketh through charity. (Galatians 5:6) This is the armor and breastplate of salvation that Paul and Peter teach. ( Isaiah 59:17, Ephesians 6:14) It is grace (Acts 15:11) that gives us the power to have faith through the act of love. The key to wisdom is humility which is knowing your place compared to God. We have gotten to the point where we are told we need to accept Christ as our personal Lord and savior without us worrying whether or not he will accept us? Even in this phrase we find an underlying ploy to separate man from the church which is the flesh of Christ perpetuated through time by the sacraments. (Ephesians 5:29, Hebrews 10:20, 1 Corinthians 10:16, John 6:65, Mark 14:22, 1 Corinthians 4:1)) “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,” ( Matthew 7:21-24)

“Simon for now on you will be called Peter”. At the moment you say Lord Lord you have faith, what happens if you do not do the will of the Father? Even if you prophecy and perform miracles, if you do not do the will of the Father what is the result? The spirit blows where it will but being caught up in the spirit is an expression of God’s love for you, not an expression of Gods truth. He loves all of us and wants us all to enter into his kingdom of the elect, but in that love has given us the free will in this brief moment of time compared to eternity, to choose him or choose self. The same Jesus that destroyed the Egyptians during the time of Egypt is the one who rules over us today. (Jude 1:5) “I have known from the beginning concerning thy testimonies: that thou hast founded them for ever.(Psalms 119:152) God does not change, man does.

Martin Luther was obsessed with the devil and admitted that he talked to him quite frequently. He truly believed the devil was present with him on multiple occasions. His presence was felt to the point of extreme anxiety, to the point where he would break out in sweats when he felt the devils presence. In Luther’s work on the Mass he said that the devil gave him praise for his doctrine of Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura and despised the Mass. Luther was admitting that the devil approved of his work. Luther’s belief that the pope was the anti-Christ came from his deductions created by his doctrine of Sola Fide. If his Sola Fide was truth then the Mass is an abomination before God, if it is not truth then the Catholic Church is Gods mystical body on earth and in heaven. Luther’s doctrine on Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura will not be found in the manuscripts of the history of the early church. His understanding of faith was completely foreign to the church God founded. Luther was so obsessed with proving his doctrine that he wanted to remove the books of Revelations and James from the Bible. Revelations 22 tells us that Christ will come and judge everyone according to their works. “and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.(Revelations 20:12) “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”( Revelations 22:12) “to render to every man”. “Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O VAIN MAN, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? 21Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?” (James 2:19) This one was Luther’s worst nightmare. But I guess if Luther had his way he probably would have tried to remove passages in Romans also. “For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things, and dost the same, THAT THOU SHALT ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF GOD? 4Or DESPISEST THOU THE RICHES OF HIS GOODNESS, AND PATIENCE, AND LONGSUFFERING? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God LEADETH THEE TO PENANCE? (21He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:21-23))5But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the JUST JUDGMENT of God. 6WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS. 7To them indeed, who ACCORDING TO PATIENCE IN GOOD WORK, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8But TO THEM THAT ARE CONTENTIOUS, AND WHO OBEY NOT THE TRUTH, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.” (Romans 2:2-8)

Abraham was not justified by works of Mosaic law which came 400 years after Abraham as Paul expresses. Abraham was justified by his total self giving to God in love as James tells us.

“Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize ? SO RUN THAT YOU MAY OBTAIN. 25And every one that striveth for the mastery, refraineth himself from all things: and they indeed that they may receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible one. 26I therefore so run, not as at an uncertainty: I so fight, not as one beating the air: 27But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: LEST PERHAPS, WHEN I HAVE PREACHED TO OTHERS, I MYSELF SHOULD BECOME A CASTAWAY.” (1 Corinthians 9:24-28)

“For whereas I was free as to all, I made myself the servant of all, that I might gain the more. 20And I became to the Jews, a Jew, that I might gain the Jews: 21To them that are under the law, as if I were under the law, (WHEREAS MYSELF WAS NOT UNDER THE LAW,) that I might gain them that were under the law. To them that were without the law, as if I were without the law, (WHEREAS I WAS NOT WITHOUT THE LAW OF GOD, BUT WAS IN THE LAW OF CHRIST,) (1 Corinthians 9:19-20)

Judaizers who were baptized Jews were trying to force the 613 commandments of mosaic law on Gentile converts. (Acts 15, Jude 1) In Peter’s vision came the direction of the Holy Spirit to abolish the law because faith came by grace at Pentecost and we are no longer burdened with a law of fear of reprisal a yoke of slavery, but we are in the age of faith, in the laws of love of the Father and the Son made true by his sacrifice on the cross. Sin is separation from God. Sin is infidelity to the spouse. In love you do not covet, in love you do not commit adultery, adultery is sin. You remain pure and if you fall you repent with a contrite heart in humility to Gods messengers and the power of the cross is applied to your confession. (Receive the Holy Spirit whose sin you forgive…)(Paul was not under the Mosaic law of sacrificing bulls and goats new moons and Sabbaths, circumcision which is fulfilled in baptism, but was under the law of Christ which is a much stronger law, it is a marriage oath.

“IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And if I should distribute all my goods to feed the poor, and if I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8Charity never falleth away: whether prophecies shall be made void, or tongues shall cease, or knowledge shall be destroyed. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child. 12We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known. 13And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS CHARITY.” (1 Corinthians 13:1-13)

Of course the protestant faith has had 500 years to develop and over time has created arguments against these facts. The problem is though, in trying to dispute them you contradict the entire early history of the church and the message the apostles are trying to get across when proper hermeneutics is adhered to. Scripture is a mystery and a seamless fabric. It does not create contradictions man’s interpretation does. One of the arguments is that these works the apostle are talking about apply to the second judgment of those who have already been saved. I can accept this and the church does also but not in the way Protestants see it. The elect are those who have been redeemed to Christ through baptism into his mystical body. In the parable of the weeds in the wheat there are weeds in heaven. There are no weeds in the heaven above. Christ says in my Father’s house there are many mansions. Those who have died in a state of grace (not in a state of sin which leads to death (1 John 5:17, 1 Corinthians 6:9)) are given reward in heaven according to their capacity to love and had loved. Some will be given greater crowns then others but through the complete purging of self it will be perfect joy for all who win the race. The apostles believed though, that you can fall out of love with God and need to persevere in that love in order to secure our election.

“For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, (Mosaic law 613 commandments) do by nature those things that are OF the law; ( Of the part of the law that pertains to the state of grace on the soul that has been glorified by the cross) these having not the law are a law to themselves: 15Who shew the work of the law WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE BEARING WITNESS TO THEM, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, 16IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST, ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL.” (Romans 2:14-18)

“By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE (Christ is a quickening spirit) flying the corruption of that concupiscence (The urge to sin after being purified and living in the sacraments) which is in the world. (19If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you “ John 15:19) 5And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6And in knowledge, abstinence; (The origin of sin is sensual self-love and ego, Sin is separation from God. Sin is a dirty window pane and God is the sun attempting to shine through the window) and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (Baptism now saves you. Repent and be baptized and your sins will be forgiven ) 10Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, THAT BY GOOD WORKS YOU “MAY MAKE SURE” YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. 11For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” (2 Peter1:4-11)

“And if some of the branches be broken, and thou, being a wild olive, art in grafted in them, and art made partaker of the root, and of the fatness of the olive tree, ( You have been made heirs to the promise of Abraham because you have been baptized into Christ Jesus) 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, BUT FEAR. 21FOR IF GOD HATH NOT SPARED THE NATURAL BRANCHES, FEAR LEST PERHAPS HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE. 22SEE THEN THE GOODNESS AND THE SEVERITY OF GOD: TOWARDS THEM INDEED THAT ARE FALLEN, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, IF THOU ABIDE IN GOODNESS, ( Faith without “charity” is dead) OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.” (Romans 11:17-23)

“For if, flying from the pollutions of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, THEY BE AGAIN ENTANGLED IN THEM AND OVERCOME: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. 21FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF JUSTICE, THAN AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN BACK FROM THAT HOLY COMMANDMENT WHICH WAS DELIVERED TO THEM. 22For, that of the true proverb has happened to them: The dog is returned to his vomit: and, The sow that was washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” (2 Peter 2:20-22)

If we do not abide in goodness in faith (Faith worketh through charity) then we will be cut off. If we come to God in repentance (Receive the Holy Spirit whose sins you forgive are forgiven whose sins you retain are retained) Then one contrite confession secures the mercy of God. The prodigals son was dead when he left his Father’s house (the wages of sin is death) and brought back to life in repentance. “FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.”

“And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.” (Mark 10:10) Expressing the goodness of God through the grace that he gives us is a work that has eternal efficacy. It is Gods will on earth.

We are made partakers of divine nature by being washed of original sin and active sin in baptism so that we could be redeemed to Christ and made heirs to the promise of Abraham (Galatians 3:27, 1 Peter 3:21,Collosians 2:11, John 3:5). The Spouse cannot accept a defiled bride. It is by this divine washing that is given the power of the cross through the blood water and spirit that flows from the rib of the true Adam that gives us (the bride) our redemption and makes us the elected of God (provided we retain our election in faith that liveth through charity), in Christ, and heirs to the promise of Abraham. “WE walk by faith, not by sight.” “Blessed are those who believe without seeing.” Not by works are we brought to redemption but by baptism in the laver of regeneration in the laver of the name of life.

“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: 26That he might sanctify it, CLEANSING IT BY THE LAVER OF WATER IN THE WORD OF LIFE: 27THAT HE MIGHT PRESENT IT TO HIMSELF A GLORIOUS CHURCH, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish… Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, AND THEY SHALL BE TWO IN ONE FLESH. 32This is a great sacrament; but I speak in Christ and in the church.” (Ephesians 5:25)

“LET a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. 2Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful.” (1 Corinthians 4:1)

The Eastern Church still uses the word mysteries for the sacraments.

“Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, BY THE LAVER OF REGENERATION, AND RENOVATION OF THE HOLY GHOST; 6Whom he HATH POURED FORTH upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Savior: 7That, being justified by his grace, (Baptism is instantaneous grace. WE have been saved from original sin and active sin up to the point of baptism by grace not works.) we may be heirs, according to hope ( You are made heirs to the promise of Abraham by being baptized into Christ Jesus) of life everlasting. 8It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be “CAREFUL” TO EXCEL IN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men.” (Titus 3:5) “To maintain OUR ELECTION.”

“Thou shalt make also a BRAZEN LAVER with its foot, to wash in: and thou shalt set it between the tabernacle of the testimony and the altar. And water being put into it, 19AARON AND HIS SONS SHALL WASH their hands and feet in it: 20When they are going INTO THE TABERNACLE of the testimony, and WHEN THEY ARE TO COME TO THE ALTAR, to offer on it incense to the Lord, 21LEST PERHAPS THEY DIE.” (Exodus 30:18)

“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of WATER AND THE HOLY GHOST, ( He has saved us by the Laver of regeneration) HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.6 ( His church on earth nor in heaven) That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. 7Wonder not, that I said to thee, you must be born again.” (John 3:5-6)

LESS PERCHANCE YOU DIE.

“The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam INTO A QUICKENING SPIRIT.” (1 Corinthians 15:45)

“And you are filled in him, who is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand, in despoiling of the body of the flesh, but in the circumcision of Christ: 12BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him up from the dead. 13And you, when you were dead in your sins, and the uncircumcision of your flesh; HE HATH QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH HIM, forgiving you all offences: 14Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, ( “I was born in iniquities in my mothers womb”… “sprinkle me with hyssop and I will be made whiter than snow.” Psalms 50. “Who can make unclean seed clean. Job 14) which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open shew, triumphing over them in himself. “ (Colossians 2:10-15) “If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new. 18But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; AND HATH GIVEN TO US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:17)

“But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10Who in time past were not a people: but are now the people of God. Who had not obtained mercy; but now have obtained mercy. ( Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the Name of the Father…)11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires WHICH WAR AGAINST THE SOUL, 12Having your conversation good among the Gentiles: that whereas they speak against you as evildoers, THEY MAY, BY THE GOOD WORKS, which they shall behold in you, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1 Peter 2:9)

As the Royal priesthood refined in the Gold of Baptism (Malachi 1:11, Malachi 3) we do not enter into the veil which is the flesh of Christ, the church perpetuated through time by the sacraments without preparation for the groom and the wedding. (He who has the bride is the bride groom) As those of the age of reason, before we have gained the knowledge of the faith and Baptism we do not consummate the marriage at the altar in the Eucharist, less perhaps our soul dies. “For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. 24And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. 27THEREFORE WHOSOEVER SHALL EAT THIS BREAD, OR DRINK THE CHALICE OF THE LORD UNWORTHILY, SHALL BE GUILTY OF THE BODY AND OF THE BLOOD OF THE LORD. 28But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, NOT DISCERNING THE BODY OF THE LORD.” (1 Corinthians 11:23-29)

The law was a pedagogue of Christ THAT CAN TEACH US THE MYSTERIES OF THE SACRAMENTS.

“If any man whosoever of THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND OF THE STRANGERS that sojourn among them, eat blood, I will set my face AGAINST HIS SOUL, and will cut him off from among his people: 11Because the LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD: and I have given it to you, that you may make atonement with it upon the altar for your souls, AND THE BLOOD MAY BE FOR AN EXPIATION OF THE SOUL. 12Therefore I have said to the children of Israel: No soul of you, nor of the strangers that sojourn among you, shall eat blood. 13Any man whosoever of the children of Israel, and of the strangers that sojourn among you, if by hunting or fowling, he take a wild beast or a bird, which is lawful to eat, let him pour out its blood, and cover it with earth.

14FOR THE LIFE OF ALL FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD: therefore I said to the children of Israel: You shall not eat the blood of any flesh at all, BECAUSE THE LIFE OF THE FLESH IS IN THE BLOOD, and whosoever eateth it, shall be cut off. 15The soul that eateth that which died of itself, or has been caught by a beast, whether he be one of your own country or a stranger, SHALL WASH HIS CLOTHES AND HIMSELF WITH WATER, AND SHALL BE DEFILED UNTIL THE EVENING: AND IN THIS MANNER HE SHALL BE MADE CLEAN.” (Leviticus 17:14-15) Those who have eaten of the food of the harlot have been made clean through washing? “Wash me yet more from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.” (Psalms 51:2)

“But the sensual man perceiveth not these things that are of the Spirit of God; for it is foolishness to him, and he cannot understand, because it is spiritually examined.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)

“Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts, and creeping things of the earth, and fowls of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: Arise, Peter; kill and eat. 14But Peter said: Far be it from me; for I never did eat any thing that is common and unclean. 15And the voice spoke to him again the second time: THAT WHICH GOD HATH CLEANSED, DO NOT THOU CALL COMMON. 16AND THIS WAS DONE THRICE; and presently the vessel was taken up into heaven. 17Now, whilst Peter was doubting within himself, what the vision that he had seen should mean, behold the men who were sent from Cornelius, (Gentile) inquiring for Simon's house, stood at the gate.” (Acts 10:12-17)

I have not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. The life’s force is in the blood. That which God hath cleansed, do not thou call common. (Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. 14But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. .” Matthew 3:13) BEHOLD THE UNBLEMISHED LAMB OF GOD. My flesh is real food my blood is real drink he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day…”( THE LIFE’S FORCE IS IN THE BLOOD”) “what if you were to see the son of man ascend to where he was before THEN WOULD YOU BELIEVE?” (John 6:62)

“And when he had said these things, while they looked on, he was raised up: AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM OUT OF THEIR SIGHT.” (Acts 1:9)

An entire Kingdom has been re established in order to protect this mystery. “The Eucharist is the essence of Christianity.” “13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying: Men, brethren, hear me. 14Simon hath related how God first visited to take of the Gentiles a people to his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets, as it is written: 16AFTER THESE THINGS I WILL RETURN, AND WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID, which is fallen down; and the ruins thereof I will rebuild, and I will set it up: 17That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all nations upon whom my name is invoked, saith the Lord, who doth these things. 18To the Lord was his own work known from the beginning of the world.”( Acts 15:13-18)

THE KINGDOM IS A CITY ON A HILL THAT CANNOT BE HIDDEN.

“Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”.

Ignatius Disciple of John the Apostle, the “whom he loved”.

“9For behold I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, as corn is sifted in a sieve: and there shall not a little stone fall to the ground. 10All the sinners of my people shall fall by the sword: who say: The evils shall not approach, and shall not come upon us. THE RESTORATION OF ISRAEL11IN THAT DAY I WILL RAISE UP THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID, THAT IS FALLEN: AND I WILL CLOSE UP THE BREACHES OF THE WALLS THEREOF, AND REPAIR WHAT WAS FALLEN: AND I WILL REBUILD IT AS IN THE DAYS OF OLD. 12That they may possess the REMNANT OF EDOM, AND ALL NATIONS, because my name is invoked upon them: saith the Lord that doth these things.” (Amos 9:9-12)

“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.” ( Malachi 1:11)

“2AND IN THE LAST DAYS the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be prepared on the top of mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it. 3And many people shall go, and say: COME AND LET US GO UP TO THE MOUNTAIN OF THE LORD, AND TO THE HOUSE OF THE GOD OF JACOB, AND HE WILL TEACH US HIS WAYS, AND WE WILL WALK IN HIS PATHS: FOR THE LAW SHALL COME FORTH FROM SION, AND THE WORD OF THE LORD FROM JERUSALEM.” (Isaiah 2:2-3)

“But you are COME TO MOUNT SION, AND TO THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, THE HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, AND TO THE COMPANY OF MANY THOUSANDS OF ANGELS, 23AND TO THE CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.”(Hebrews 12:22-24) AT EVERY MASS.

“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared AS A BRIDE ADORNED FOR HER HUSBAND.” (Revelations 21:2) The Bible is a Triune mystery that does not conform to time.

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to BEHAVE THYSELF IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which is the church of the living God, the PILLAR AND GROUND OF THE TRUTH. 16And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels, hath been preached unto the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.”(1 Timothy 3:15-16)

“To me, the least of all the saints, is given this grace, to preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9And to enlighten all men, that they may see what is the dispensation of the mystery which hath been hidden from eternity in God, who created all things: 10THAT THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD MAY BE MADE KNOWN TO THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS IN HEAVENLY PLACES THROUGH THE CHURCH, 11ACCORDING TO THE ETERNAL PURPOSE, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord:” (Ephesians 3:8)

“16Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. 19And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matthew 16:16-19)

PETER FEED MY SHEEP.

22And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23I in them, and thou in me; THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE: AND THE WORLD MAY KNOW THAT THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.” (John 17:22)

The bride is prepared; Baptism

The marriage is consummated; The Eucharist

One contrite confession and the fatted calf will be prepared and heaven will rejoice.

bumperjack
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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » January 19th, 2015, 9:45 am

Silent yes understandable( My wife gets hot also when she is home & Im on the computer) I want to thank you for your input first on email nice input really I will share it for sure. I guess we can believe what we care to because we have free will, brother!!! Far as Early Christianity goes Jesus was a jew not a "catholic" and all His apostles were jews also the disciples... they met in there homes there was No Catholic church for many years after Jesus died and that is history at its best. you have a faith that I dont believe in,but that is ok! and I understand your faith you believe to be true and thats ok also! history states that Christianity in the Roman empire was not formed untill the 4th century under the auspices of Constantine who decided Christianity would be the official religion. Thats History brother.The first Christians were Jews Not "Catholics" the first Christians appear in the book of Acts.Catholics were not heard of for hundreds of years Later.Thats from my study on history silent and I believe most of what is written on the History of Religion.


Colossians 2:13-14 reads as follows, When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

The Greek word translated all in this passage is pas. It means each, every, any, all, the whole, all things, everything. This would seem to support the claim that all sins past present and future were forgiven at the cross. It also supports Paul’s statement that at the moment of belief the Holy Spirit was sealed within us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance .

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory (Ephes. 1:13-14).

Taken literally, this means the Holy spirit is the down payment that guarantees the redemption of the acquired possession (us). This guarantee went into effect when we first believed. (By the way, for those of you who only speak King James-ese, all translation interpretations on this site are from the Greek text that brought forth the King James Version.)

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Cor. 1:21-22).

This tells us that God has established us as His and has placed His seal upon us as well. A seal is meant to authenticate ownership, placing it beyond doubt. It’s similar to the brand a rancher places on his cattle. 1 Cor. 6:19 says we are no longer ours, we were bought with a price. The price was the life of His Son Jesus. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee that God, who acquired us, will also redeem us.

Hebrews 10:12-14 states that Jesus offered Himself as a once for all time sacrifice for sin that has made us perfect forever.

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Once for all time means it applies from the beginning of the Age of Man to the end and continuously throughout. That includes the entire life of every believer. In offering Himself as our sacrifice for sin He has made perfect forever we who are being made Holy. This is an expansion of the writer’s claim in Hebrews 7:25 to the effect that because Jesus lives forever He is able to save us forever. (These verses prove that all interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27 that are used to deny eternal security are incorrect on their face. The same author, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, could not contradict himself so radically).

Notice the sacrifice made us perfect forever, even though we’re still in the process of being made Holy. That’s a job that won’t be finished until the rapture/resurrection.

Being made perfect forever is what Paul meant when he said, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17). The verbs here are in the past perfect tense. That means from God’s perspective this is all over and done. Paul said that by accepting the Lord’s death as payment for all our sins we’ve become as righteous as God is (2 Cor. 5:21).

These statements are all consistent. Individually and collectively they clearly show that all the sins of our life are forgiven from the moment we first believe. And there’s not a single verse in the New Testament that contradicts, modifies, or retracts these promises. After all, how could God guarantee our salvation from the moment of belief unless all the sins of our life were paid for and forgiven at the cross?

But We Still Sin!

So how can we reconcile this with the undeniable fact that we still sin? Remember, in His Sermon on the Mount Jesus explained that sin begins with a thought, whether action follows or not. Anger is as much a sin as murder, lust is as much a sin as adultery. He could also have said coveting is as much a sin as theft, and so on. The writer of Hebrews told us that continuing to work to earn or keep our salvation is equivalent to breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath (Hebrews 4). And James said whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it (James 2:10). It’s only by using the blood of Jesus to wash away all the sins of our life that God could make good on His promise to guarantee our inheritance. Here’s how He does it.

Because we’ve been born again, God chooses to see us as the perfect being we will be after the rapture /resurrection. He can do this because He’s outside of time. Remember, eternity is not just a lot of time. Eternity is the absence of time altogether and God inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Remember God telling Adam that in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die? (Genesis 2:17) When Adam and Eve disobeyed, they didn’t die then and there. But although they lived for several hundred more years, they were changed from immortal to mortal on that day. Their eventual death became a certainty and God who is outside time saw it at the moment they sinned.

Becoming born again is the exact opposite. We didn’t actually become immortal on that day but our immortality was made certain, and from that time on God saw us as immortal beings. He inspired Paul to write, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17). Although to us we’re still much the same, to God we became a new creation on the day we accepted the Lord’s death as payment for our sins. He now sees us as being as righteous as He is (2 Cor. 5:21). This righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (Romans 3:22).

Paul explained how God is able to do this in Romans 7:18-20. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

For a born again believer, God has separated the sin from the sinner. God sees our sins as a holdover from the old us and does not consider them to be part of the new us.

What Should Be Our Response To This?

Does this mean we’re free to sin all we want? Are the legalists correct in saying that if God didn’t threaten us with the loss of our salvation we would all become the worst kind of depraved sinners? Millions of born again believers whose lives are radically different stand as evidence to the contrary. We all still sin from time to time but the direction and focus of our lives is not the same as it once was, and we can testify to the fact that we’ve been changed. Although Paul said everything is permissible, he also said not everything is beneficial or constructive. Therefore we no longer seek our own good but the good of others (1 Cor. 10:23-24) in the hope of winning the prize for which God has called us heavenward in Christ Jesus (Phil 3:14). Paul was not talking about his salvation, which he already had, but rewards he hoped to receive at the Bema Seat judgment (1 Cor. 3:10-15) after the rapture.

This is why the loss of our salvation is never threatened. Our belief in our eventual immortality matches what God has already seen for us, and in the meantime we strive to heed Paul’s advice to live up to what we have already attained (Phil 3:16). This is our spiritual act of worship (Romans 12:1) in gratitude for what we’ve been freely and irrevocably given.

But what about those true believers who don’t respond with gratitude and who don’t seem to have changed, living pretty much the way they did before they were saved? Is the gift rescinded? The promise broken? The guarantee revoked? I haven’t found a single verse that threatens them in this way. How could there be when all the sins of their life are paid for, including the sin of ingratitude.

What I’ve found is that for the most part, these ungrateful souls live defeated lives here and forfeit rewards in the hereafter. These are the ones Paul said will still be saved but only as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor. 3:15).

Here on Earth they have union with out fellowship, never experiencing any intimacy with God. As a result their Christian walk consists of movement without progress, battles without victories, and service without success. They’re on the right side of pardon but the wrong side of power, having justification without sanctification.

Jesus described them in the parable of the sower and the seed, saying they’re like the seed that fell among thorns. It germinates and grows but because it’s choked by the thorns, it never matures to bear fruit. Because these believers are too concerned with the ways of the world, they never mature as Christians and never produce anything of value to the Kingdom (Matt. 13:22). At the Bema Seat they’ll stand before the Lord with nothing to show for the incredible gift they were given because they will fave failed to implement the wonderful plan He had for their lives.

The New Testament is crammed with admonitions and encouragement to allow the Holy Spirit to change the focus of our lives from the things of this world to the things of the next one, from the things we can see, which are temporary, to the things we cannot, which are eternal (2 Cor. 4:18), to be made new in the attitudes of our mind (Ephesians 4:23) no longer conforming to the patterns of this world (Romans 12:2). In short, to live up to what we’ve already attained (Phil. 3:16).

Some believers who fail to heed these admonitions will find themselves having escaped judgment simply because on a single day in their otherwise unremarkable life they made a decision that changed everything. For some it will be the only smart decision they ever made, but they will have made it in faith, which is all that matters (Ephesians 2:8-9) because having made it, all the sins of their miserable existence were forgiven and they became a child of God (John 1:12-13), adopted into His forever family (Gal. 4:4-5).

When the time comes, those who failed to make that decision would gladly trade the riches of the world to change places with them. But as indescribably generous as the gift they received on that day is, it was only the first installment on the life they could have had. Whether out of ignorance or rebellion they turned down the rest, refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them into it, until finally the still small voice within them could no longer be heard.

I sometimes wonder if the loss some will suffer at the Bema Seat (1 Cor. 3:15) will appear as endless warehouses of unclaimed blessing or if the tears the Lord wipes from their eyes will be tears of regret upon learning what they could have done through Him had they responded to the Holy Spirit’s prompting. Only time will tell. But at least, it will all be in the past, because Rev. 21:4 goes on to say that from then on there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things will have passed away. All their sins were forgiven from the day they first believed. Selah 08-27-11

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » January 20th, 2015, 6:43 am

Silent it's pretty simple "Salvation" is found in Christ alone, not by baptism,not by sacraments,not by anything else brother.

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby MMRbkaRudog » January 20th, 2015, 8:20 am

bumperjack wrote:Silent it's pretty simple "Salvation" is found in Christ alone, not by baptism,not by sacraments,not by anything else brother.

You don't believe in baptism either?

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » January 20th, 2015, 10:07 am

Rudog:There are 3 different types of spiritual outlooks on Baptism,I've been baptised,I do not believe Salvation includes anything but by excepting the free gift which is eterna life,The "sacramental veiw" is what Catholics believe in far as baptism. "Salvation" is simple.We are saved by grace through faith in "Jesus Christ". Baptism shows a outword sign of a inner grace we POSSES in our Salvation.It does not save us.or sanctify us.

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » February 13th, 2015, 5:05 pm

Silent The concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. First, the New Testament does not teach that there are to be priests in the New Covenant. Instead, the New Testament teaches that all believers are priests. First Peter 2:5-9 describes believers as a “holy priesthood” and a “royal priesthood.” Revelation 1:6 and 5:10 both describe believers as “a kingdom of priests.” In the Old Covenant, the faithful had to approach God through the priests. The priests were mediators between the people and God. The priests offered sacrifices to God on behalf of the people. That is no longer necessary. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we can now approach God’s throne with boldness (Hebrews 4:16). The temple veil tearing in two at Jesus’ death was symbolic of the dividing wall between God and humanity being destroyed. We can approach God directly, ourselves, without the use of a human mediator. Why? Because Jesus Christ is our great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-15; 10:21) and the only mediator between us and God (1 Timothy 2:5). The New Testament teaches that there are to be elders (1 Timothy 3), deacons (1 Timothy 3), bishops (Titus 1:6-9), and pastors (Ephesians 4:11) – but not priests.

When it comes to confession of sin, believers are told in 1 John 1:9 to confess their sins to God. God is faithful and just to forgive our sins as we confess them to Him. James 5:16 speaks of confessing our trespasses “to one another,” but this is not the same as confessing sins to a priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches. Priests / church leaders are nowhere mentioned in the context of James 5:16. Further, James 5:16 does not link forgiveness of sins with the confession of sins “to one another.”

The Roman Catholic Church bases their practice of confession to a priest primarily on Catholic tradition. Catholic do point to John 20:23, “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." From this verse, Catholics claim that God gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that authority was passed on to the successors of the apostles, i.e., the bishops and priests of the Roman Catholic Church. There are several problems with this interpretation. (1) John 20:23 nowhere mentions confession of sin. (2) John 20:23 nowhere promises, or even hints, that the authority to forgive sins would be passed on to the successors of the apostles. Jesus’ promise was specifically directed to the apostles. (3) The New Testament nowhere states that the apostles would even have successors to their apostolic authority. Similarly, Catholics point to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18 (binding and loosing) as evidence for the Catholic Church’s authority to forgive sins. The same three above points apply equally to these Scriptures.

Again, the concept of confession of sin to a priest is nowhere taught in Scripture. We are to confess our sins to God (1 John 1:9). As New Covenant believers, we do not need mediators between us and God. We can go to God directly because of Jesus’ sacrifice for us. First Timothy 2:5 says, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » February 13th, 2015, 5:14 pm

Silent here is how I understand Salvation through Catholicism basically not saying your right are wrong just something for you to respond to hope allis well havent spoken in awhile with you.
Salvation, in Roman Catholicism, is a process with many steps: Actual Grace, Faith, Good Works, Baptism, Participation in the Sacraments, Penance, Indulgences, and Keeping the Commandments. Basically, salvation is attained through baptism and good works. It is maintained by good works and participation in the sacraments. If lost, it is regained through the sacrament of Penance which only a Roman Catholic priest can administer. Add to this purgatorial cleansing after a person dies, and you can see that salvation is an arduous process.

In Catholicism, a person can gain salvation and lose it many times depending on the number of sins committed, their severity, and how much of the sacraments they participate in--in order to regain grace which enables them to do good works by which they are justified. Furthermore, justifying grace is infused into the Catholic upon baptism and via the sacraments. This grace can be gradually lost through venial sins or forfeited all together with mortal sins.

In light of all of this, I've written three interrelated articles:

Part 1, Attaining Salvation in Roman Catholicism
Part 2, Maintaining Salvation in Roman Catholicism
Part 3, Regaining Salvation in Roman Catholicism
See also, Summary of process of salvation in Roman Catholicism


Attaining Salvation, Part 1 of 3
Actual grace
Actual Grace is the first step in the process of attaining salvation in Roman Catholicism. Actual grace is what God gives to a person to enable the person to seek and respond to God’s call of faith. It helps the person move towards God--where he then freely chooses to accept or reject God’s work in Christ.

Actual grace is “A supernatural help of God for salutary [beneficial] acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ,” (Catholic Encyclopedia, “Actual Grace”).
"Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, herein referred to as CCC, par. 2000).
With actual grace working on a person, he is then able to have faith which is necessary for salvation. But this faith is not a simple faith in Christ's work on the cross, so that we are justified by faith alone in Christ's work alone (Rom. 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16). On the contrary, according to Catholicism, the faith that is necessary for salvation must be a faith that also affirms what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.

"Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: ‘He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.’ (Mk 16:16),” (CCC 183).
“Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself," (CCC 1814).
“Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC 846).
Baptism
Once actual grace has done its work and the person believes the gospel (and in the Roman Catholic Church), baptism is a necessary element for salvation in Roman Catholicism. It is where sins are removed and a person is justified before God.

". . . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (CCC 977).
“Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude . . . " (CCC 1257).
"Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC 2020).
At baptism, a person is restored to a state of innocence before God by erasing original sin. Justification occurs in baptism, and sanctifying grace (the grace that saves) is infused into him.

“Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin . . . " (CCC 405).
“Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy,” (CCC 1992).
“The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism,” (CCC 1999).
Good Works
According to Roman Catholicism, once a person is baptized and his original sin is removed, he must perform good works because they are also necessary for salvation.

”The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation,” (CCC, par. 2010).
“The Decalogue [the Ten Commandments] contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason,” (CCC 2080).
" . . . the Second Vatican Council confirms: 'The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,'" (CCC 2068).
Good works are necessary because Roman Catholicism denies justification by faith alone. Justification is the declaration of righteousness. It is where the righteousness of Christ is reckoned to the believer (Phil. 3:9) by faith (Rom. 5:1). It is not by faith and something but by faith alone (Rom. 4:1-5). But, Roman Catholicism declares that if anyone believes in justification by faith alone in Christ alone, then he is to be cursed.

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema," (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 14).
“If any one saith, that the justice [righteousness] received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema." (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 24).
So in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation is a process that includes faith, baptism, and good works. Therefore, in Roman Catholicism, attaining salvation and being justified (being right in God’s eyes) is not an instantaneous event received by faith. It is a long process.

Biblical Response
Salvation in Roman Catholic Salvation is a system of works combined with faith. But, what does the Bible say about salvation when it comes to faith and works? It separates them and clearly says that works are not part of becoming saved.

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." (Rom. 3:28-30).
"What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:1-5).
"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal. 2:16).
So we can see that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Did you also know that adding works to salvation is condemned in scripture?

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
"Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." (Gal. 5:2-4).
“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" (Matt. 7:22-23).
In Gal. 3:1-3 above, Paul is clearly teaching that the Galatians were fools. Why? They were adding works to the work of the Holy Spirit. In Gal. 5:2-4, Paul tells them if they received circumcision, that they would not be under grace. Circumcision represented the works of the Law, and Paul clearly tells them that just getting circumcised (not doing good works) would damn them. Why? Because it was a symbol of keeping the Law. That is why Paul had previously said in Gal. 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Finally, in Matt. 7:22-23 we see an account where Jesus condemns people on the day of judgment. Why would they be condemned? They were appealing to their faith in Christ and their works for their salvation on "bad day." By adding any works into the active salvation, it means that the work of God is not sufficient, but that it needs to be perfected--completed by human effort. This is why salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It cannot be by faith and any of our works.

Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." this breaks it down remember grace is unmerited favor something we are given after faith.

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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » February 13th, 2015, 5:31 pm

Assurance o f Eternal Security "Salvation" is a gift Silent here is a study of all principles...



Silent this my take brother. While the believer may gain assurance of his salvation and know that he has been saved, the question may arise concerning the permanence of his salvation. Once genuinely saved by trusting in the merit of Christ’s death on the cross for sin, can the believer lose his salvation? Is there anything we can do to lose our salvation? The answer is NO! Why? Because Scripture clearly affirms the fact we are protected by the power of God through faith. Faith brings us into a grace relationship with God as a gift of God through the merit of His beloved Son. We are saved by His record, not ours.

1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

The following seven approaches set forth the case for the believer’s eternal security, “buckled up for safety” because of the power of God and the overwhelming sufficiency of the person and work of Christ.

The Trinity Approach

The first argument for the eternal security of the believer stems from seeing how all three persons of the trinity work in concert to make and keep us secure in Christ.

FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE SON

Romans 8:31-39 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “ For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we have complete victory through him who loved us! 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The declaration in Romans 8:34, “Christ is the one who died,” is given in answer to the questions of verses 31-33, and in anticipation to the questions and declarations of verses 35-39. The goal of verse 34, however, is to show the absolute security of the believer. Two reasons are stated in relation to God the Son:

(1) Christ Died as Our Redeemer and Substitute: By His death Christ removed the barrier that separates mankind from God. Man’s sin and God’s holiness, which form a barrier between the sinner and God, were dealt with at the cross so God is free to justify us, declare us righteous through faith in Jesus Christ. The same truth is declared in the following verses.

Romans 3:23-28 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 25 God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. 36 This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith! 28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 5:1,8 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, … 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

The book of Hebrews states Christ’s death is the only sacrifice which counts and is once and for all time.

Hebrews 9:11-14 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.

Hebrews 9:26-28 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.

Hebrews 10:12-14 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy.

(2) Christ Is Risen and Sits at God’s Right Hand. The second argument of Romans 8:34 concerns the resurrection and session of the Savior at God’s right hand. He sits at God’s right hand as our powerful advocate and intercessor to plead our case when we sin or when accused of sin, and to intercede on our behalf by virtue of His finished work on the cross which reconciles us to God.

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, “The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the ruling authority of his Christ, have now come, because the accuser of our brothers, the one who accuses them day and night before our God, has been thrown down.”

Romans 5:10-11 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? 11 Not only this, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation.

Hebrews 7:25 So he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

John 17:11 I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE FATHER

Through the protection of our heavenly Father, whose holiness has been perfectly satisfied by the death of His Son, we are kept by:

HIS SOVEREIGN PURPOSE

Salvation depends upon God to bring it to pass, not us. Nothing, not even our sin, can frustrate the eternal and sovereign purpose of God who determined to save us by grace through faith in His Son. Since God’s holiness has been satisfied by the death of Christ, He can be just and the justifier of those who receive His Son by faith.

Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ. 4 For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. 5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will— 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

HIS LOVE FOR THE SON

We are kept for the sake of the Son and His perfect work for our sin. Believers are “in his dearly loved Son,” the place where God’s love abides, and nothing whatsoever can separate us from the love of God (cf. Eph 1:3-6 above).

Romans 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

HIS WORK OF DISCIPLINE

The Father’s work of discipline proves we are still sons even when we sin. He does not disown us; He disciplines us.

Hebrews 12:5-11 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons? “My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline or give up when he corrects you. “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” 7 Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness. 11 Now all discipline seems painful at the time, not joyful. But later it produces the fruit of peace and righteousness for those trained by it.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that sexual immorality exists among you, the kind of immorality that is not permitted even among the Gentiles, so that someone is cohabiting with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you? 3 For even though I am absent physically, I am present in spirit. And I have already judged the one who did this, just as though I were present. 4 When you gather together in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 turn this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:30-32 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Sin does not change our relationship to God as His children though it does affect our fellowship, the intimacy of our walk with God, our ability to serve Him, and the rewards we will receive in the future kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

HIS SOVEREIGN POWER

Nothing or no one is greater than the Father which means nothing or no one can defeat God’s purpose to save us or remove us from His love and care (cf. Rom. 8:31-39).

1 Peter 1:5 who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Jude 24 Now to the one who is able to keep you from falling, and to cause you to stand, rejoicing, without blemish before his glorious presence,

2 Corinthians 5:17-19 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come! 18 And all these things are from God who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and who has given us the ministry of reconciliation. 19 In other words, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.

FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

HIS WORK OF SPIRIT BAPTISM

Spirit baptism refers to the work of the Holy Spirit whereby He places believers into union with the body of Christ and identifies them with Christ’s person and work. If believers could lose their salvation, it would mean the body of Christ could and would be maimed. This is foreign to Scripture. To the carnal church in Corinth, which was full of strife, envy, fornication, and drunkenness, Paul declared, “are you not walking like mere men?” (1 Cor. 3:3). Yet, he affirmed the fact of their salvation and the presence of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:1 So, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but instead as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

HIS WORK IN REGENERATION

Regeneration refers to the impartation of spiritual and eternal life which makes us new creatures in Christ. This can never change. First, it is based on the work of the Son, not our works. And second, as physical birth makes one a child of his parents forever, so spiritual birth does the same.

2 Corinthians 5:17 So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!

Titus 3:5-7 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

John 3:3-8 Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must all be born from above.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it will, and you hear the sound it makes, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

John 3:16-18 For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

As mentioned previously, rather than disown a disobedient child, God disciplines his children. At times it may even be to the point of physical death, but believers still remain His children (cf. above Heb. 12:5-12).

HIS WORK OF INDWELLING

This refers to the gift of the Holy Spirit to indwell the believer which was promised by our Lord as a permanent indwelling. The Spirit is given forever and given without conditions other than faith in Christ.

John 7:37-39 On the last day of the feast, the greatest day, Jesus stood up and shouted out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me, and 38 let the one who believes in me drink. Just as the scripture says, ‘ From within him will flow rivers of living water.’” 39 (Now he said this about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were going to receive, for the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 14:16 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

James 4:5 Or do you think the scripture means nothing when it says, “The spirit that God caused to live within us has an envious yearning”?

THE HOLY SPIRIT AS A SEAL

This is a description of the Holy Spirit from the standpoint of what He is to the believer through His indwelling. A seal in ancient times was a sign and proof of: (a) a completed transaction, i.e., our salvation, (b) of ownership, we belong to God, and (c) of security since only an authorized person could break the seal. In this case it is God and He has promised not to do so.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

As a result, Paul declares that even the carnal Christians at Corinth belonged to God as a result of this finished transaction of their salvation in Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

THE HOLY SPIRIT AS AN EARNEST

This forms another picture of what the Holy Spirit is to believers in Christ. As an earnest agreement on a house is a buyer’s pledge to purchase and pay the full price for the house, so the Holy Spirit is God’s personal pledge and guarantee of our security promising us there is more to come: we will receive the ultimate or eternal blessings of our salvation. The term “down payment” in the following verses refer to an earnest agreement-like pledge.

Ephesians 1:14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22 who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a down payment.

The Positional Approach

Spirit baptism joins the believer into union with Christ. This becomes the new spiritual position of the believer. Phrases such as “in Christ,” “in the beloved,” and “with Christ,” used over and over again in Paul’s epistles, refer to this concept. This calls attention to the fact the Bible emphasizes we are saved and accepted through our position in or union with Christ.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ.

Ephesians 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son.

Ephesians 2:5-6 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Colossians 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 This saying is trustworthy: If we died with him, we will also live with him. 12 If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us. 13 If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, since he cannot deny himself.

This is a place not only of security, but of double security! Our union with Christ is a guarantee of glory.

Colossians 3:3-4 for you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ (who is your life) appears, then you too will be revealed in glory with him.

The Logical Approach

Simply stated, if God did so much for us while we were sinners, completely alienated and enemies of God before salvation, how much more will He not do for us now that we have been reconciled and stand related to Him as His children who have been justified, declared righteous in Christ?

Romans 5:8-10 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God’s wrath. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?

Romans 8:32 Indeed, he who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things?

God’s Hand Approach

A specific and wonderful promise from the Lord is that no one (and this must include Satan or ourselves) can remove us from either the hand of the Son or the Father. Scripture tells us we are in God’s hand, which is a place of perfect security because He is greater than all.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

The Tense Approach

The use of the perfect tense in a number of New Testament passages would further point to the believer’s security. The meaning of the perfect tense in Greek combined with the context and the analogy of Scripture forms another argument for the security of the believer. The perfect tense refers to action or an event which, completed in the past, has results existing in the present time (i.e., in relation to the time of the speaker). It looks at the present state of affairs. The following passages that use the perfect tense stress the saved state of the believer who has trusted in the Savior.

John 5:24 “I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life.

Romans 5:2 through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in the hope of God’s glory.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you are savedthrough faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Grace Approach

This argument is simply this. The New Testament plainly states we are saved by grace through faith in the person and work of Christ, and that salvation is not of human works or works of righteousness which we have done. If, however, having put our trust in the person and work of Christ, we can lose our salvation by what we do or do not do, then in the final analysis, we are saved by works. This is contrary to the theology of the New Testament (cf. also Rom. 4:1-5; 11:6; Rev. 21:6; 21:17).

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.

Titus 3:5 he saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit,

What Sin Approach

This approach asks the question, “ What sin causes a person to lose his salvation?” Sin, any sin falls short of the perfect holiness of God. Every person, regardless of his maturity or relationship with the Lord, is far from perfect by God’s standard. We all have something in our lives which falls short of God’s glory, i.e., some sin though it may be unknown.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous, forgiving us our sins and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his word is not in us.

Where, then, do we draw the line? Those who believe we can lose our salvation categorize sin as though God overlooks some sins while He judges others. It becomes a matter of degrees and the question arises, how bad must we become before we lose our salvation? Which sin does us in? People often categorize sin into various levels, but their categories are usually out of touch with God’s perspective.

Proverbs 6:16-19 There are six things that the Lord hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: 17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 a heart that devises wicked plans,feet that are swift to run to evil, 19 a false witness who pours out lies,and a person who spreads discord among family members.

Problem Passages

What about those passages that are often taken to mean the believer can lose his salvation? For this study, we cannot deal with all these passages. Generally, however, we can show that none of these passages teach we can lose our salvation if the immediate context and the context of the entire New Testament is considered, or if the principle of the analogy of the faith is considered.

THE ANALOGY OF THE FAITH

The analogy of the faith is a hermeneutical principle which says unclear passages should be understood in the light of clear ones, not vice versa. It is my conviction that those who believe we can lose our salvation, or who teach Lordship salvation, violate this principle.

They violate this principle in two ways:

(1) They base their understanding of the Gospel on a few difficult or unclear passages rather than the many very clear ones.

(2) They overthrow the correct interpretation of clear passages by understanding them in the light of their faulty views of the unclear or more difficult passages of Scripture.

CATEGORIES OF DIFFICULT PASSAGES

The problem passages (those used to teach believers can lose their salvation, or used to teach that they were never really saved or they would never do such and such) in reality fall into one or more of the following categories and do not deal with the issue of eternal salvation:

(1) Passages that deal with the Bema (the Judgment Seat of Christ) and are thus warning believers against the potential loss of rewards—rather than the loss or lack of salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Corinthians 9:25-27 Each competitor must exercise self-control in everything. They do it to receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. 26 So I do not run uncertainly or box like one who hits only air. 27 Instead I subdue my body and make it my slave, so that after preaching to others I myself will not be disqualified.

(2) Passages that warn against the severity of God’s discipline in this life when believers refuse to respond to His grace.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If someone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, which is what you are.

Hebrews 6:1-6 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this is what we intend to do, if God permits. 4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.

Hebrews 10:23-31 And let us hold unwaveringly to the hope that we confess, for the one who made the promise is trustworthy. 24 And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works, 25 not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near. 26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us, 27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that will consume God’s enemies. 28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for the Son of God, and profanes the blood of the covenant that made him holy, and insults the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know the one who said, “ Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” and again, “ The Lord will judge his people.”

(3) Passages that portray the nature of who we are as God’s children, and that which must, therefore, characterize us as children of God. This includes passages that portray the nature and condition of unbelievers as a motivation to godly living or living like the people we have become positionally in Christ. These passages do not threaten us with the loss of salvation nor do they call us to question our salvation. They challenge us to live like the people we are in Christ. For instance, compare Ephesians 5:1-12.

1 Therefore, be imitators of God as dearly loved children 2 and live in love, just as Christ also loved us and gave himself for us, a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God. 3 But among you there must not be either sexual immorality, impurity of any kind, or greed, as these are not fitting for the saints. 4 Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting—all of which are out of character—but rather thanksgiving. 5 For you can be confident of this one thing: that no person who is immoral, impure, or greedy (such a person is an idolater) has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let nobody deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God’s wrath comes on the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them, 8 for you were at one time darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of the light— 9 for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth— 10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For the things they do in secret are shameful even to mention

THE ARGUMENT OF 1 JOHN 3:6F.

1 John 3:6-10 Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous. 3:8 The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed: to destroy the works of the devil. 3:9 Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God. 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are revealed: Everyone who does not practice righteousness—the one who does not love his fellow Christian—is not of God.

First John 3:6 occurs in a section where John is giving reasons why believers should not sin. Here he gives one reason after another not to question our salvation but to motivate believers to walk in the light. Does 1 John 3:6b mean the abiding believer, the one who clings to Christ, actually never sins? Such an idea would contradict 1 John 1:8 and 10 and 5:16. Because of our weakness and lack of perfection in this life, even abiding believers sin. So what does John mean?

As an illustration, let’s say a young child steals a pack of gum at the supermarket. When the mother finds out, she says, “the members of this family do not steal. Do you understand that?” Does that make sense? One of them had just done that very thing. What was this mother saying? She was saying that stealing was against the moral standards of their family, and therefore, the little boy had to learn this lesson and refrain from ever doing it again. She wasn’t saying she had gone around and checked and found that none of the members of the family had ever stolen. She was pointing out the standards of their family as a motivation to her son.

John is simply telling us, this is the standard, that we do not sin, and we need to get with the plan. He is not denying that believers sin or that they can fall into the pattern of sinning. To drive this concept home even more, this verse is followed by more reasons and illustrations against sin in the lives of believers.

Another statement for motivation is in verse 9: “Everyone who has been fathered by God does not practice sin, because God’s seed resides in him, and thus he is not able to sin, because he has been fathered by God.” It is not saying believers are incapable of sinning. This would contradict the verses mentioned above.

Most take this verse to mean that John is saying Christians cannot sin or will not sin habitually. Is this what John is saying? No. I do not believe this is his point. “Practices” is a misleading translation. If that was John’s point, the Greek prasso, which John uses in the verses below, could have expressed that more clearly.

John 3:20 For everyone who does ( prasso) evil deeds hates the light and does not come to the light, so that their deeds will not be exposed.

John 5:29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done ( prasso) what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.

So, what is John saying? The word “cannot” does not always mean incapable. It can also mean unwilling. The following New Testament passages illustrates this:

Luke 11:5-7 Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say to him, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, 6 because a friend of mine has stopped here while on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.’ 7 Then he will reply from inside, ‘Do not bother me. The door is already shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything.’

Luke 14:20 Another said, ‘I just got married, and I cannot come.’

Mark 1:45 But as the man went out he began to announce it publicly and spread the story widely, so that Jesus was no longer able to enter any town openly but stayed outside in remote places. Still they kept coming to him from everywhere.

Mark 6:3-5 Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And aren’t his sisters here with us?” And so they took offense at him. 4 Then Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown, and among his relatives, and in his own house.” 5 He was not able to do a miracle there, except to lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them.

1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take part in the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

First John 3 is saying we must be unwilling to sin because we were born of God’s nature. This is much like Romans 6:1-10 which follows the declaration of 5:20-21.

Let’s say a doctor tells a smoker with throat problems, “You cannot smoke again.” This doesn’t mean the person is incapable of smoking but that he must not because of the physical consequences to his body.

It is clear from the life of King David, who is called a man after God’s own heart, that believers can and do fall into serious sin and for long periods of time. For believers in Christ (with all that they have in Christ) to live under sin’s reign like the unbelieving world is an illogical and contradictory position. It carries with it very serious consequences including the possibility of the sin unto death as God’s divine discipline to stop the pattern of sinning.

1 Corinthians 11:27-32 For this reason, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself first, and in this way let him eat the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without careful regard for the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin not resulting in death.

The Consequences of Carnality
(Living with Known Sin in the Life)

Key Passages:

Psalm 66:18 If I had harbored sin in my heart, the sovereign Master would not have listened.

Psalm 32:3-4 When I refused to confess my sin, my whole body wasted away, while I groaned in pain all day long. 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth.

(1) Loss of fellowship with the Lord plus loss of the control of the Holy Spirit and His fruit in the life (cf. 1 Jn. 1:5-7). Sin grieves and quenches the Spirit (Eph. 4:30; 1 Thess. 5:19). Sin affects our prayer life (Ps. 66:18), our witness (Acts 1:8), Bible study (1 Cor. 2:10-16; Eph. 3:16f), i.e., all the ministries of the Holy Spirit in believers’ lives. The Holy Spirit’s ministry is turned from enabling to convicting, etc.

1 John 1:5-7 Now this is the gospel message we have heard from him and announce to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with him and yet keep on walking in the darkness, we are lying and not practicing the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not extinguish the Spirit.

Psalm 66:18 If I had harbored sin in my heart, the sovereign Master would not have listened.

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the farthest parts of the earth.

1 Corinthians 2:10-16 God has revealed these to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So too, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things that are freely given to us by God. 13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 The unbeliever does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is understood by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to advise him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Ephesians 3:16-19 I pray that according to the wealth of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, so that, because you have been rooted and grounded in love, 18 you may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and thus to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

(2) Misery, loss of joy, because we are controlled by the sinful nature.

Psalm 32:3-4 When I refused to confess my sin, my whole body wasted away, while I groaned in pain all day long. 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

(3) Dissipation or wastefulness of our spiritual, mental, and physical resources.

Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, which is debauchery, but be filled by the Spirit,

(4) Production of the works of the flesh with their awful consequences.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!

Galatians 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, being jealous of one another.

(5) Divine discipline, the heavy hand of God on our lives to turn us around.

Hebrews 12:5-10 And have you forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons? “My son, do not scorn the Lord’s discipline or give up when he corrects you. 6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.” 7 Endure your suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is there that a father does not discipline? 8 But if you do not experience discipline, something all sons have shared in, then you are illegitimate and are not sons. 9 Besides, we have experienced discipline from our earthly fathers and we respected them; shall we not submit ourselves all the more to the Father of spirits and receive life? 10 For they disciplined us for a little while as seemed good to them, but he does so for our benefit, that we may share his holiness.

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For the one who eats and drinks without careful regard for the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead. 31 But if we examined ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned with the world.

Psalm 32:4 4 For day and night you tormented me; you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

(6) Broken relationships and pain to those around us, especially to our families.

Galatians 5:15 However, if you continually bite and devour one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God, that no one be like a bitter root springing up and causing trouble, and through him many become defiled.

(7) Loss of our testimony in the world and dishonor to the Lord.

1 Peter 2:12-15 and maintain good conduct among the non-Christians, so that though they now malign you as wrongdoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God when he appears. 13 Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether to a king as supreme 14 or to governors as those he commissions to punish wrongdoers and praise those who do good. 15 For God wants you to silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good.

1 Peter 3:15-17 But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess. 16 Yet do it with courtesy and respect, keeping a good conscience, so that those who slander your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame when they accuse you. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it, than for doing evil.

1 Peter 4:15-16 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or thief or criminal or as a troublemaker. 16 But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name.

(8) Loss of rewards at the Bema seat of Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. 14 If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil.

Consequences of
Continued and Open Rebellion

In addition to the above the following apply:

(1) Increased discipline from the heavy hand of God.

Psalm 32:4 4 For day and night you tormented me;
you tried to destroy me in the intense heat of summer.

Hebrews 12:6 “For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and chastises every son he accepts.”

(2) Continuation in sin may require the church to take action even to the point of excommunication (1 Cor. 5).

2 Thessalonians 3:6-15 6 But we command you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to keep away from any brother who lives an undisciplined life and not according to the tradition you received from us. 7 For you know yourselves how you must imitate us, because we did not behave without discipline among you, 8 and we did not eat anyone’s food without paying. Instead, in toil and drudgery we worked night and day in order not to burden any of you. 9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 For even when we were with you, we used to give you this command: “If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat.” 11 For we hear that some among you are living an undisciplined life, not doing their own work but meddling in the work of others. 12 Now such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to work quietly and so provide their own food to eat. 13 But you, brothers and sisters, do not grow weary in doing what is right. 14 But if anyone does not obey our message through this letter, take note of him and do not associate closely with him, so that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Matthew 18:17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. If he refuses to listen to the church, treat him like a Gentile or a tax collector.

(3) Divine discipline to the point of physical death.

1 Corinthians 11:30 That is why many of you are weak and sick, and quite a few are dead.

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his fellow Christian committing a sin not resulting in death, he should ask, and God will grant life to the person who commits a sin not resulting in death. There is a sin resulting in death. I do not say that he should ask about that.

Certainly, believers are secure in Christ and cannot lose their salvation, a salvation accomplished by the finished work of the Savior who sits victoriously at God’s right hand to plead our case. But reality, and Scripture shows us, unless believers abide in fellowship and deal in faith with the sin in their lives, they can fall into serious conditions of sin just like David. Such can happen because the person was never truly saved, but quite often the real cause is a failure to abide in the life and power of the Spirit of God.

It is our hope that this study on the eternal security of the believer has been a help. The goal of understanding our security is an assurance that motivates to godly living, never careless living or taking the Lord for granted. Remember, God is our heavenly Father who, in love will discipline His children to draw them back to himself.

The Apostle staked his faith on the trustworthiness of God’s grace. Though some understand this to refer to God’s deposit of gifts in Paul, I believe that which he had entrusted, literally, “the deposit,” was his personal faith in the finished work of Christ as the basis of his salvation. Paul was confident that this would be preserved until all the dangers and failures of life would be past with the coming of the Lord.

silentwssj
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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby silentwssj » February 14th, 2015, 12:58 am

Hey there my brother Bumperjack! That is quite a hefty post! I have been real busy this last week. I got laid off. I packed all my stuff and headed home. I have been enjoying my time off. I hit them weights every day and even started hitting 5 mile runs. I have been painting my daughters room as well! No rest for me though Homie! I already got called back out. I start with a new gig on Monday! Same stuff. I will be on the road again! I am going to have to suspend my posts for a while as I will not have any internet! I will always have my phone though. We will get back on track later on when I get all this figured out. Right now I got to focus on my new work assignment and moving into a new place! Take care though and God Bless! Hit me up for quick posts anytime. Right now I can't do nothing major though. Silent!

bumperjack
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Re: Catholicism part 5 "Salvation"

Unread postby bumperjack » February 14th, 2015, 8:15 am

Silent: family and work first my brother: thanks for informing me, good luck!!! with your new assignment!!! brother,Its been almost 2 weeks.I hadn't heard from you on "streetgangs "but take care of your business...Going to gym is a daily endeavor for me as well,wow 5 miles is along run I do 2 miles daily.and try to stay in gym 5 days a week.Sounds like you got alot on your plate but nothing you cant handle.take care brother and have a great weekend with YOUR FAMILY YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST L&R BJ.


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